Wishful thinking WillH2O, the closing of the mill race is the start of fixing the mill race toe drains. Once the city goes down this path the dam's future is secure.

The city won't spend the money to fix the mill race and then tear the dam and mill race down, makes no financial sense at all.

Read the article you linked too in the Ann Arbor Chronicle, even the mayor thinks the dam will not be taken down and he has a strong association with HRWC.

Time to turn your energy and passion to dams that should be removed like the Ypsilanti site.

Cool video by the way, I have noticed Kayakers in the Olympics using their legs but did not understand how or why. The stroke actually shares many similar dynamics with the rowing stroke. I am sure that makes you cringe but it is true.

I am trying to get a copy of a very cool rowing video from the U of M team on Argo to share with you and other readers of this thread, hope to have a copy by tomorrow to post. I think even you will have to admit it is pretty cool video to watch.

My oldest daughter who rows for MSU (yes she started rowing with the rest of us two years ago, learning on Argo after her freshman year at MSU) asked me to mention that rowers also use pogies so we do have that in common at least.

Talk to you again tomorrow.

Maybe you should look at the East Race (ER) in South Bend, Indiana again. It has been mentioned in this debate and I paddle there often yes I'm a whitewater paddler. First off the ER was built 25 years ago and is very artificial. Today a lot can be done to make new whitewater courses look more natural. The ER is a modification to a old mill race on the east side of the river and the dam is still there. In South Bend there is rowing on the St. Joe just above the ER and the dam. The rowers are at home less than a half mile above the ER and row down to within sight of the ER. I believe that a local club and the University of Notre Dame use this location. A whitewater course can exist with no affect on rowing. Why not modify the broken mill race you have now into a whitewater course? That would allow rowing to continue the way it has and would add paddlers on the river. You should get someone who knows how to design a whitewater course show you how to keep everyone happy and on the water. A lot can be done if things are designed right.

Whitewater at the Argo Dam site IS being looked at by professional park builders

There is substantial, empirical evidence that river access improvements can have significant, positive, economic benefits, for a local community. Whitewater Parks attract a desirable demographic of users, from outside of a community, between the ages of 18-60 with disposable income and the willingness to travel in pursuit of this specific recreational activity.

Flows at the site vary from an average of 850 cubic feet per second (cfs) in the early spring, to an average of 200 cfs in mid-summer to early fall. There IS sufficient flow to support recreational use throughout the year, weather permitting. When flows are higher more experienced users will use the facility; when flows are lower during the summer months less experienced users and bank-based users will frequent the site.

(source: waterdata.usgs.gov, station USGS 04174500)

The whitewater portion of the project consists of four whitewater features located in the main channel of the river, downstream of the existing Argo Dam. Each feature would consist of a drop structure with approximately three feet of hydraulic fall.

Cost effective, recreational, safety and environmental improvements can be made at the Argo Dam site. The proposed concept will improve existing conditions and provide a unique recreational amenity for local residents and regional visitors alike. The proposed project will create a truly unique facility with flat-water recreation, Class I moving water and whitewater recreation, all hosted at the same site.

This project would likely serve as a national model for the blend of river recreation and environmental benefits gained through providing fish passage around the Argo Dam. Communities around the country have found that whitewater parks can be powerful economic stimulators and create vibrancy that radiates out into the community, from the river corridor. Ann Arbor has the potential to create a world-class recreational amenity that will benefit the entire community.

Recreational improvements in the modification of the Argo Dam are cost effective !





http://bit.ly/ArgoDesignConcept

CLICK on image to get a full view !

-




Recreation Engineering and Planning
485 Arapahoe Ave
Boulder | CO | 80302
(303) 545-5883

jastharp a hybrid solution has been proposed but is cost prohibitive. There is a proposal to modify the mill race as well and hopefully this will get serious consideration.

Rowers have no objection to these modification plans if they don't prevent rowing, which as presented they would not other than losing a few hundred feet of rowable water, which is not a big dea.

H20Willi is very anti rowing as can be seen by his posts, so I appreciate you a fast water kayaker taking a more even attitude toward the debate.

Still working on getting a copy of that video promised from my last post.

Rowers are the ONLY reason the dam exists at all at this point in time.
There are no other arguments against removal of the dam.

The dam should have gone a long, long time ago as it's just a dying relic of an age gone by

Do you really think rowers are that powerful and/or influential? Wish that was the case and this would be a done deal.

Unfortunately that is not the case, so we are diligent in getting the all the information out for people to review and decide for themselves.

For example, I found out today that HRWC and possibly some city officials have been seeking funding to remove the dam from State and/or the Feds for the past two years and they have been completely unsuccessful. If the dam is going out, the city is going to have to pay for it and that is a deal killer.

You must have had some really bad experiences with rowers or crew teams in the past to have such a negative view of a sport and the people that participate in that sport.

But in the end if the dam does stay and you want to "blame" rowers for that decision I really don't have a problem with that. Fortunately there have been many other non rowers step up and support Argo pond and park at all the city meetings and it is clear that is going to continue.

WillH2O one post ago: "Rowers are the ONLY reason the dam exists at all at this point in time.
There are no other arguments against removal of the dam."

WillH2O four posts ago: "Whitewater at the Argo Dam site IS being looked at by professional park builders" and presents a plan which preserves the dam.

I guess WillH2O is arguing against himself. Funny things do happen when you get paddled with a cleaver.

The dam would be gone in a second if it was strictly up to the designers.
They want all the water they can get to make the water park.

I've paid close attention to a variety of dams getting torn down around the nation and
often kayakers and canoeists get the short end of the stick compared to other special interest groups.

The Shiawassee river in Chesaning Michigan just removed a dam and put in massive huge rocks weirs that totally mess with people wanting to paddle that section of the river.
City officials claims it for the fisherman.....yeah, fisherman that don't use boats !.

The Shiawassee River JUST got a labeled a State Heritage Water Trail and then the City of Chesaning bone headed officials get his bright idea to block the river for paddlers.

Hopefully Ann Arbor has a progressive Blue Infrastructure evolution from its officials.

H20Willi,

Good luck with that, regarding the Ann Arbor officials, instead they are going to spend over $35,000 in legal fees contesting the MDEQ order, which is completely crazy no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

No matter if you are a rower or a kayaker, it is pretty clear this is going to come down to a pure financial cash flow decision and the interests of either party though loud won't be the deciding factor. The solution that impacts the city's cash flow the least in the next two years is the decision that will be the one that wins. You and I can forget all the long term predictions, environmental or recreational impacts, in the end it is going to be the all mighty dollar.

In this case that is fix or close the mill race to comply with the MDEQ and/or electrify the dam or dam out advocates some how find federal or state money to fund the removal very soon, which from everything I have read and heard is not going to happen.

If no funding is found to take the dam out the status quo is going to win, which in this case would make the majority in Ann Arbor very happy.

There are expressions said in a variety of ways :
-Have to break eggs to make the cake
-Need to spend some money to make some money
-Sitting on the fence gives splinters and hemorrhoids,
& a funny walk when it's over

Senate Bill # 2747 was introduced to the floor of the Senate on
Monday, 09 November 2009 -Legislation to permanently provide $900 million to the Land and Water Conservation Fund (LWCF), the federal government’s main program to protect land and provide outdoor recreation opportunities is supported by a broad coalition of conservation and recreation organizations.

The program also includes grants to support state and local parks. Those grants help develop park facilities and recreational amenities – creating jobs and supporting the quality-of-life factors that allow communities to attract employers and a strong work force.

Because only a fraction of the funds dedicated to the purpose have actually been spent, there is a backlog of more than $30 billion worth of lands that federal agencies would like to protect. In addition, states say they have a huge unmet need for local parks and recreation resources totaling more than $27 billion in eligible projects.

Federal and state public lands as well local parks and recreation facilities greatly enhance communities’ quality of life, which in turn helps large and small localities to attract new residents and businesses and to generate tourism-related jobs and revenues. Outdoor recreation including hunting, fishing, camping, climbing, hiking, paddling, backcountry skiing, mountain biking, wildlife viewing, and other activities contributes a total of $730 billion annually to the economy, supporting 6.5 million jobs (1 of every 20 jobs in the U.S.) and stimulates 8 percent of all consumer spending according to the Outdoor Industry Foundation.

Many studies show that this type of commitment to our nation's recreation infrastructure would easily pay for itself in the resulting reduction in health care costs and the increase in the mental well-being of our children,” said Frank Hugelmeyer, president of Outdoor Industry Association.

The Land and Water Conservation Fund Coalition is an informal partnership of national, state and local conservation and recreation organizations working together to support full and dedicated funding for LWCF.

Awesome, we should get some money to take out the Ypsi dam and develop the fast water park that the Kayakers association is interested in, and maybe we can even funding for improvements on Argo pond for rowing purposes.

Here is another park that is being built right now. Multipurpose in design with the dam left in place. Should be running by next year in Yorkville, Illinois.

Links
www.yorkville.il.us/documents/Yorkville-APFposter.pdf
www.illinoispaddling.org/YorkvilleWhitew...eWhitewaterPark.html
www.chicagowhitewater.org/cwa/yorkville/yorkvilledesign.pdf

The Argo dam is causing a significant sediment issue.
The rowers are the ones complaining the pond was filling in with sediment making rowing difficult.
UM coach Greg Hartsuff stated that he thought there had been about 4 feet of deposition
in the ponded area over the ~15 years between ~1990 and 2003.

Impoundments and dams stop the movement of water and sediment.
The sediment drops out and accumulates over time.
Any engineered system needs active management of the consequences.

Dams prevent rivers from doing what they’re supposed to do: move water and sediment. They put a chokehold on the life within the river: preventing the flow of plants and nutrients, impeding the migration of fish and other wildlife, and blocking recreational use.

Dams slow rivers: Many fish species depend on steady flows to flush them downriver early in their life and guide them upstream years later to spawn. Stagnant reservoir pools disorient migrating fish and block or significantly increase the duration of their migration.

Dams alter water temperatures: By slowing water flow, dams increase water temperatures. Fish and other species are sensitive to these temperature irregularities, which often destroy native populations.

Dams alter timing of current flows: The Huron River at Argo Dam has one of the top two most erratic flow regimes in Michigan, according to the USGS. These irregular releases destroy natural seasonal flow variations that trigger natural growth and reproduction cycles in many species.

Dams decrease oxygen levels in reservoir waters: When oxygen-deprived water is released from behind the dam, it kills fish downstream.

Dams hold back silt and nutrients: By slowing flows, dams allow silt to collect on river bottoms and bury fish spawning habitat. Gravel, logs and other debris are also trapped by dams, eliminating their use downstream as food and habitat.

Who supports removing Argo Dam?

* The Michigan Department of Natural Resources
* Washtenaw County Water Resources Commissioner
* The Ecology Center
* American Rivers
* Huron River Fly Fishing Club
* Huron River Paddlers
* Washtenaw Audubon
* Ann Arbor Area Trout Unlimited
* Michigan Trout Unlimited
* Kayaking Club of U-M
* Michigan League of Conservation Voters

Well that is true for dams that block free flowing rivers, it is not true for Argo that has a dam 3k up stream and another about 2.5k down steam. In fact it has been shown that there is minimal sediment build up behind Argo as apparently Barton dam is catching the vast majority of sediment. The issue with the sediment behind Argo is is may be polluted from the industrial use from decades past on the site.

The fish population in the Gallup water area is no different than the fish in Argo so the fishing would not change without artificial seeding.

It has been shown that the water in Argo pond is cooler than the water in Barton pond, Barton pond is up stream of Argo, so there is cooling after Barton dam.

The stretch of water that makes up Argo pond is the only certified water safe for swimming along the entire stretch of the Huron within Washtenaw county.

The most significant issue in removing Argo is the Detroit Edison property just past Argo, which is known to be polluted with heavy metals. If the dam is removed the river would run into this area of land and erode/flood it and potentially causing a major pollution issue. As a result the land must be cleared prior to any dam removal, adding millions (yes millions) to the cost of the dam removal project.

Last but not least an independent study has shown that the mill race issue is not a major problem, as originally thought, as a result the city is not going to spend the $1.4 million to remove the dam (not to mention the cost of cleaning up the Detroit Edition property, relandscaping, silt mitigation etc). If you take a look at Annarbor.com site (search Argo) you can read about all of the above. Game over.

As for supporters, recreational users that want to maintain Argo pond have just as impressive of a list and the majority actually live in Ann Arbor:

* Ann Arbor City Council - The decision makers
* The Mayor of Ann Arbor - Publicly stated he is in support of keeping the dam in place. (www.annarbor.com/news/mayor-addresses-ar...or-rowing-community/)
* 90% of the audience at over 10 city council meeting and public meetings on Argo dam
* Ann Arbor Pioneer High School Crew Team
* Ann Arbor Huron High School Crew Team
* Ann Arbor Skyline High School Crew Team
* University of Michigan Mens Crew Team - National Champions last season
* Joe O'Niel - the builder of the current Argo dam (1972)
* The Ann Arbor Park Commission voted in favor of keeping the dam.
* The residents that live on this stretch of water overwhelming want Argo Pond to remain in place (by the way not one of them was invited to any of the two years worth of discussions on the topic by HRIMP)
* The athletic directors from all three high schools mentioned above
* The citizens of Ann Arbor, take a drive through the city, you will see Save Argo Pond signs everywhere.

Dam out folks should turn their attention to the Ypsi dam where there is a consensus from the entire community to remove the dam. In addition, the US Kayaking Association is very interested in turning this stretch of river into a fast water course. Fight the battles you can win, the Argo debate is over.

Love the use of generalities instead of facts...........

Ypsi dam where there is a consensus from the entire community to remove the dam.

Ann Arbor City Council - hardly a complete 100% consensus - more like 60/40 remove

Rowing members - hardly the population of Ann Arbor - a minority in fact


Argo Dam issue is far from over - the Huron should run free - a resource that belongs to ALL
-
This really is an issue of what is good for MICHIGAN
-

Interesting you accuse me of posting generalities and you use a conceptional drawing that shows the river magically turning away from some of the most polluted land in Washtenaw county. Rivers run straight until they are forced to turn, which will be right at the very polluted Detroit Edison property at that bend. You figure out how to fix that issue and come up with the money to take out the dam and we can debate some more. Don't solve that problem and the Huron river goes from pristine urban river to one of the most polluted rivers in Michigan. Game over

I have not heard or read one thing opposing the removal of the Ypsi dam, and everything I have read is in favor including the organization that represents your sport. Oh but I forgot you have a "thing" for rowing so it makes sense that you keep banging your head against Argo dam. The primary issue with the Ypsi dam is of course money as it is with Argo. Pick a cause you can win, because you can't win this one under the current city administration, citizen desires or economy. Game over.

By the way I know for a fact that there are a minimum of six council members strongly in favor of keeping the dam (not counting the Mayor who I believe may waffle depending on the political winds) now that the real facts and issues have been brought to light, compared to the hyper environmental arguments using generalizations that don't apply to this urban stretch of river, that will still be damed even if Argo is removed. Game over, thankfully the majority still rules in Ann Arbor.

Rowers a minority, hmmm that's funny because I have never seen more than one kayaker or canoeist at any of the public meetings state they want the dam removed. Even HRWC could not muster more than 3 or 4 to show up in support at any meeting and most of the time it was 1 or 2 people. In fact the the vast majority of canoeists or kayakers and general public for that matter, that attended the public meetings have been in favor of keeping Argo dam and Argo pond in place. Rowers are the majority when it comes to using this part of the river, the majority when it comes to advocating what should be done with this part of the river. Game over.

Most importantly dam in advocates (well beyond the entire rowing population) are the majority when it comes to elections (see last city council elections results and how the dam out members did. In case you missed it, not so well and the remaining dam out members are very concerned about the next election as well they should be). Again that stubborn majority rule problem your side faces. Game over.

Funny how you completely ignore the other issues in my previous post, I understand since there is no arguing them, but of course thought I should point that out. Game over.

Despite any arguments in favor or against any type of decision the real issue is there is no money to do anything significant, it is all about cash flow. Yes I know I am repeating but does not really seem to sink in with you so thought I should. Game over.

What is good for Michigan is not wasting money on something the community does not want or can afford. Ann Arbor citizens have made it very clear they do not want the dam removed, and clearly the city does not have the cash or finances to take on a multi-million project. Game over.

Find some money to remove the dam (good luck with that)....and we can pick this up again. But even then it really is GAME OVER.

Pick a battle you can win, I have enjoyed our debate. You are welcome to make the last and continuing posts as it looks like my work here is done.


Cheers,
Mike

Apologies for being a bit sarcastic with this post, but I got tired of all your selective arguments and rhetoric so thought I would try your style in reply. Not really a fan, but was fun to write. I still like kayaking, you should come down to the boat house and give rowing a try, I would be glad to help show you the ropes if interested.

Mike - You don't know much about rivers......they don't flow straight....get a clue already !

The only thing that goes straight and can't turn worth a hoot is a long rowing boat going backwards.
Backwards seems to a mental thing that permeates the rowing community.

Progress moves forward - like a massive tidal wave tearing down antiquated dams.


Most natural rivers have twists and turns in them, very long straight sections are quite rare.

The surprising fact about a meandering rivers' creation is that the geometric shape is similar
around the world despite the different geophysical conditions. Geomorphology gives a
clear, detailed explanation of the causes and the development processes of meanders.

A river continually picks up and drops solid particles of rock and soil from its river bed.
In areas where the river flow is fast, more particles are picked up than dropped.
Conversely, in areas where the river flow is slow, more particles are dropped than picked up.
Areas where more particles are dropped are called alluvial or flood plains, and the
dropped particles are called alluvium. Even small streams make alluvial deposits,

The speed of the current close to the bank is usually slower than the one in mid-stream,
because of the friction with the river bank. When a disturbance to the straight water flow occurs,
as a result of an obstacle or a change in soil conditions in different parts, the water detours
the obstacle and an arc is formed in the river bed. The water flow is accelerated
and as a result the alluvium process intensifies in the external side of the arc.

Deposition of sediment occurs on the inner edge as the river sweeps and rolls
sand, rocks and other submerged objects across the bed of the river towards
the inside radius of the river bend, creating a slip-off slope called a point bar.

Erosion is greater on the outside of the bend where the soil is not protected by deposits.
The current on the outside bend is more effective in eroding the unprotected soil.
The inside bend receives steadily increasing deposits of sand and rocks,
and the meander tends to grow forming a small cliff called a cut bank.

The meanders extend the watercourse of the river; creating a reduction of the overall
flowing speed in this part of the river. As a result, there is a gradual tapering off the
centrifugal force until it diminishes altogether. The curvature radius eventually stops growing.
When the curvature radius reaches its maximum size, the meander is called a mature meander.

The more one descends down stream, the intensity of the stream grows,
and therefore the meanders reach maturity when the curvature radius is larger.
The process of meander creation is one which creates a balance in the stream's speed.
Rivers tend to balance the current speed along the river bed.

Michigan citizens are fortunate to be surrounded by more than 36,500 miles of rivers and streams. The Natural Rivers Program, which is part of the DNRE focuses on the protection and enhancement of those river resources. The year 2010 marks the 40th anniversary of Michigan's Natural Rivers Act.

Michigan was following the lead of the federal Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, which had been signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson in October, 1968. Michigan is currently one of 33 states with river protection legislation. The new law authorized the DNRE to develop a system of Natural Rivers in the interest of the people of the state and future generation, for the purpose of preserving and enhancing a river's values for a variety of reasons, including; aesthetics, free-flowing condition, recreation, boating, historic, water conservation, floodplain, and fisheries and wildlife habitat.

Stick to splashing about in a puddle - you don't know diddly about rivers.

The USA has over 20 million people enjoying kayaking and canoeing on a yearly basis
- rowing a sculling shell backwards is definitely and distinctly in the minority

The DEQ's dam safety office did an inspection of the dam in 2004 that concluded water was seeping from the dam's foundation. Such seepage leads to "piping," in which water tunnels through an earthen dam. This is the second most common cause of embankment dam failure. The DEQ's report is the only real science available on Argo.


EMU and Saline Crew are already on Ford Lake, go join them, split the costs.

WillH20,

If you read your own quoted passage carefully on river dynamics, and if you had studied the actual site conditions at the Argo dam, if you know where the original stream bed is, you'd see why Mike is right and Detroit Edison land fill is endangered if the dam is removed.

Also when you earlier said that that Argo Dam experiences the greatest water level fluctuations as measured by the USGS, you don't know that the actual fluctuations are NOT actually caused by the dam. It is caused by the Allen creek flowing in just 30 yards downstream of the dam. This is caused by excess storm water during periods of heavy rain on the urban landscape. In fact, there is currently a big project about 1.5 miles upstream in Ann Arbor at Pioneer High school, to mitigate this problem by letting the excess storm water seep into ground.

In fact, if you want to kayak white water, why not try Allen Creek during a thunderstorm. There is about a hundred feet drop from Pioneer high school all the way down to the Huron river. Make sure you come prepared though, for it is not for the faint of heart.

KhaiM

I believe the proper quote is :

Flows at the site vary from an average of 850 cubic feet per second (cfs) in the early spring, to an average of 200 cfs in mid-summer to early fall. There IS sufficient flow to support recreational use throughout the year, weather permitting. When flows are higher more experienced users will use the facility; when flows are lower during the summer months less experienced users and bank-based users will frequent the site.

(source: waterdata.usgs.gov, station USGS 04174500)

Averages mean just that - there will be spikes as weather conditions fluctuate; hurricanes, etc.
-

The dam embankment is COMPROMISED by the root systems of numerous plants
allowing a shift in the groundwater flow , in and through the embankment.

Ann Arbor will have crews begin working on the embankment and needs to
demonstrate substantial progress to the MDNRE within the next 30 to 45 days.

Vegetation concerns were first raised by the MDNRE in a safety order last August.

This is a Michigan issue, with a public river open to all people .

WilliH2O, Okay I lied about no more posts, but I could not resist as you continue to put your foot in your mouth.

Look at the map of the current river around Argo dam that you so kindly posted on this thread about four months ago. See that sharp almost 90 degree turn just past the dam? The river is not going to magically keep flowing like that if the dam is removed. It is going to run into that far embankment because there will be nothing to stop or slow down the flow (as Argo dam does now). The river did not turn at such a sharp angle prior to the dam being built and it will try to return to the same course if the dam is removed.

Guess what? That embankment is the Detroit Edison property. Many believe it is the most polluted property in Washtenaw county. You really want the dam out, take up a fund drive, I think 2 to 5 million will do the trick, and mitigate that ground pollution.

Your continuation to ignore the facts of this situation and willingness to risk turning the down river past Argo into a polluted nightmare is astounding. You try to base your arguments on environmental reasons but they just don't hold water, just like they did not when other groups made the same arguments. It is clear you want some fast water for a few weeks a year for your own greedy recreational needs and to hell with the environment, current users or the citizens that will foot the bill, which I find pretty sad. At least the rowing community is honest with their intentions.

By the way still won't be a naturally flowing river if Argo is removed because of Barton Dam, Gallup Dam, and the over 20 other dams on the river.

Time to find another cause, try the Ypsi dam.

Fortunately you don't get to make the call, I and the citizens of Ann Arbor via the City Council do. You want a say, you need to move to Ann Arbor, and you can then join the 2 or 3 dam out fanatics that come to the public meetings. But for now the citizens and city council have had their say and the dam is going to stay.........Game over.

Regarding your issues with rowing, I would recommend some counseling.

Have a nice life I hope you get to kayak and dance a lot.

Cheers,
Mike

The funny thing about rivers - they belong to everybody, not just Ann Arbor.
It is a state issue, hence the MICHIGAN Department of Natural Resources is involved.
Ann Arbor will have to answer to state and federal agencies.
-
Perhaps if you read the entire whole article, instead of just the first line, you would have
deeper knowledge of what the river would actually do.

ONLY in the event of a massive high water event - would the current wall allow flooding
of the MichCon service center. Building a higher wall fixes that situation permamently.
Quick, easy, cheap fix, with no recurring maintenance fees on the dam.

It's a red herring and it's rotten and stinks because people refuse to read the actual facts.

Please do your homework more carefully in the future - I think you're fairly smart

Paddlers Rejoice

www.annarbor.com/news/argo-dam-update-he...e-place-this-summer/[/url]

The $1.17 million project will reconstruct the Argo Dam headrace.
Paddlers will be able to use the headrace, a 1,500-foot canal , allowing them to
bypass the dam to get to Gallup Park and other points east.

Amazing how money becomes available when canoe/kayak paddlers unite !

Make that canoe/kayak paddlers and rowers all of which came out in strong support of this project. The Mayor was very enthusiastic and only one council member voted against it, that council member was not happy with the source of funding.

Because the headrace is going to be opened the toe drains will need minimal if any repair as well