Tell me whats your favorite kayak company!
Im goin for Dagger obviously.

Jackson Kayak for what they stand for and its a major kayak company that is family owned

Im pretty torn. Jackson kayaks are great and theyre what i learned in, but LL are great boats too and I just got a Riot Air which is defenitely the sweetest boat ive ever paddled. I never had the chance to get into a recent dagger or waversport, so i cant coment on them. overal id have to go with LL.

The entire Liquidlogic Company goes paddling in the link below.
www.lvmvideo.com/quicktime/LLontheChattooga.mov
You need Quicktime 7 to run this video.
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When you call Liquidlogic you will talk to a kayaker. We know what you are looking for, and want you to be able to go kayaking because that is what we would want. Definitely a shameless plug for Liquidlogic, but I think people overlook the fact that there are companies that live kayaking, and those that just make kayaks. And in the end the difference will matter.
Shane
Liquidlogic Kayaks

well I like dagger not just because of their kayaks but it was also started by three friends who pulled their money together and started Dagger in tennessee and because of their paddle with the pros tour, I thinks thats really cool of them to do.

I agree with you because that is the company we are.
When they started the company I bought a Response before they even had graphics. I loved the idea.
The only thing is that none of those people are there anymore.

Shane

I'm going with Liquid Logic, I got a Lil Joe back in june and it's the most comfortable boat i've ever sat in.

Dave

P.S. Keep up the good work Shane and the crew.

I wasn´t going to write this responce, and I probably shouldn´t but I´m bored and I have this opinion.

I would say that I favor the small buddy based companys over Daggers, although both my kayaks are Dagger at the moment

I have a Dagger Nomad, which I think is an excilent boat for me. When I bought it I demoed a Robson creek boat and some other, cant remember probably a Riot and opted for the Dagger. I could have demoed the Mafia and the Huka, but having broken the back band of the Mafia just trying to get in it and seeing all the snow board type straps in side it I decited this was not the boat for me. I also didn´t want the Huka b.c. I had heard you had to get used to it, and at the time I needed a boat I could feal comfortable right away. I also have a Dagger king pin, which I got second hand in a exchange for a WS EZ so it was a convenient deal, so there is that.

So here are the cons, I guess it´s good to end on an positive note. These are just my fealings and oppinions, so plese don´t kill me for this. Rather throw me a rope

EJ
I think EJ is to pg-13 and he comes off as being more of a competitor than a soal boater. He might have the mentality to build an empire and end up as the next Dagger. And then he does something like the workout extension to your kayak. I would say if I had 2 kids and a minivan EJ would be my kayak dealer, but I don´t and he isn´t.

Corran
He is such a salesman. And I don´t care how fun it is to paddle the DR boats on glassy waves, I can only take so many videos of him and his friends carwing back and forth.

Shane
In the LL buddys out kayaking video there is a guy, not the best kayaker, not wearing a helmet except for one rapid. I don´t think that is a good role model. And the boats look kinda FisherPrice.

BlissStick
Well they are too far away and didn´t chose the rigth name for their last creekboat. Why not the rock?

Robson
I think they should stick to paddles.

Eskimo
Kinda stale

Fluid/Dakkar
Mostly harmless.

Dagger
They are the Wal-Mart/MS of kayaking.

So thats all the bad stuff, now the nice stuff. First off I think most the small boat manufacturer are good shapers and designers. I also belive that their customer support is better than Daggers, although I have never used it, but small and personal is usualy better. Besides the fact that I respect the individuals out there making kayaks for the fun of it, is soal-shapers a word, I think they excell in these areas.

EJ
I tried the AllStar, that is an excelent boat. I also love the happy feet. EJ comes off as beginner friendly and safe to children and that is always important. I think of him as the fun dad that takes you kayaking, and teaches you things.

Corran
He has made a lot of inovative stuff. He has made good educational videos, nice boats and is not afrait of being Corran. I have thought about getting boats by Corran, but I feal it´s like changing from Windows to Linux, a bit scary but probably worth it.

Shane
He is like the fun unkle that takes you kayaking. And that thing about the LL boats looking like FisherPrice, I think it´s kinda cool, but I had no other bad stuff.

BlissStick
Nice boats, and support a lot of the kayaking down south.

Robson
Paddles rather than kayaks.

Eskimo/Prijon/Fluid/Dakkar
Some nice kayaks, but mostly I don´t know.

Dagger
I guess they will always be there, so solid is their grade.

And now the Jerry Springer moment of sen.
I guess over all this comes down to what one thinks. It's like asking Britney Spears or the hot chick in your class. I would go for the hot chick in the class, I would have better odds with here... I hope

I hope I didn´t piss any one off with this content or length of the post....

I think that at some point if most boats are pretty equal, which I disagree with, there should be something more to buying your boat. Like digging Corran's circus, or E.J.s family thing, or Uncle Shane, but when you buy into the Big Kayak Company that owns 50% of the market you aren't helping a fellow kayaker you are buying into a huge corporation.

No doubt if they are coming out with the best thing by all means go for it, but if there isn't a difference really. Why not be a part of a kayaking company instead of a company that just makes kayaks.
Just a thought.
Shane

I totally get the irony of saying I'd like to support you guys but I bought it at wall-mart half price. And I don´t think all the boats are the same or similar, just to make that clear.

But some times you are faced with situations where you can chose cacke or death and they just ran out of cacke... I guess my choises were or death.

So to uncle Sahne, circus master Corran and papa J I can only say I promise I won´t do it again, and I´ll keep buying happy feet and DVD´s from you while I'm desroying my Dagger boats I guess what I like the most about the "small" guys is that in all these videos, helmets or no helmets, kids or no kids, carving or no carving you always seem to be having fun and doing it b.c. it´s fun, and in that sense you are always in touch with us regular kayakers.

Good on you.
I haven't even voted in the poll yet. Have you?

Shane
Oh yeah by the way I did notice you said I wasn't the best kayaker. You are right there but you are walking on thin ice there baby.

i've used dagger since i know kayaking...

they've proven themselves on many expeditions without braking or cracking, loosing parts or whatever.

surely this is a reason that they became what they are at the moment...possibly holding 50% of the market.

i have tried various others and had buddies with other boats and either they cracked, had a problem somewhere or whatever was that there's a problem.

for myself, i am not a playboater and my kayak has to be reliable...i don't want to start a gorge which might be a multiple day trip and then end up having to crawl out becuase my kayak broke/cracked or whatever...

i don't mind to crawl out if i f#%^ up but if my materials let loose...not nice...

so, i am sure there are some boats (LL i think) which are on a similar manufacturing standard but there are plenty of boats wich are having various problems with their plastics (Robson, Pyranha) in the meaning of not very long lasting and some which are having problems of putting in too many belts and buckles and sometimes it gets just prone to braking (also see dagger air hip pads but they are only in playboats)...

for my taste, it needs what LL says 'a buddy' on the river but what dagger delivers (say the nomad or cfs models just never gave in..no matter what)..

we had boats with the hulls bend and the obvious pig noses boiled up with water and fried over fires and they just reshaped...its a great thing to have and i am sure othe rplastics might do the same but i've seen many pyranhas crack and plenty of robsons having too soft a plastic (even while the charger seems to have improved)...

i've never been that happy about wavesport and only hope that the dagger/ws marriage will keep the quality up.

I like the forum in LL that is really great. Jackson is nice because they are making boats for kids. Thats really great in my opinion. Also jackson has sizes to accomadate ANY paddler in their fun series. LL has few sizes in their boats. LL boat's have outfitting that makes it difficult for multiple people, unlike jackson, easily adjustable. both Shane and Ej are good guys though. I'm pissed at both companys because they aren't making any smaller creekers.

DO YOU HEAR THAT GUYS, I WANT A MINI-JEFE or a MINI-ROCKER.

trigger sux because it has a slicy stern, hero sucks because it has a sharp bow and stern. So to screw you both i'm buying a diesel 65. Not the best creek boat but it appears to be the best for me.

anyway... I'll go with jackson because they are a new company and may make a new creeker the year after next. Not like i'll still be pleading for a small creeker by then anyway.

Wud up with leaving out wavesport, they seem huge to me. I live in the DC area and even when i travel it seems to be all about WS. Dagger doesn't seem to be big where i live, they are redundant. WS seems good, they make multiple sized boats. Also the i see the Local Paddler/ team wavesport guys around a lot. they are really cool

I switch about every 2 years. I always go with a smaller company like Liquid Logic, Fluid, Pyranha, and riot. I think that the 420 is the best new playboat(fits more people than the Project) and I love the stretch as well for big water running and play. Heck I took it off a 55 footer and it did great. I agree with Shane about dagger. If you are looking for good down home values dagger is no longer the company it use to be. I think that Wave Sport is going to be confluence's baby and we will start seeing the same thing that watermark did to perception. Down the toilet!! When you support those guys, even though I have great friends at confluence, you are supporting everything that kayaking is not. They do own 50% of the market and they think that they rule the world. I will not support them just because of that. I have to conflict with Shane on one thing. If Steve Jordan could own the world, he would. I have seen some shady stuff come out of that office that lets me know that it is true. As far as the guy drinking whatever out of his booty, I wouldn't worry to much about him. He has just got it all wrong. All of those guys that started Dagger in their garage are on the beach now soaking it up. I can't say that I blame them. That is the American dream, but I wouldn't support confluence as much as I use to if I were you. It might just come back and haunt you(us all) in the end. I guess it is better than the Bank of Islam owning everything like I thought it was going to be. Later--Gavin

Forget about brands...look at kayaks! If the coffee at *bucks tastes better than the coffee of that small little shop, would you go for that small little shop because just because it is small??

Also, for a lot of people counts: when you get used to a brand, you stick with it. In my short paddle career I started off paddling dagger, which is good, and needed some time to get used to my new necky. I like both brands, and I will probably like LL, fluid and whatever you throw at me too...not liking dagger kayaks because they are a big company is a little weird to me...and judging kayaks by their designers is even weirder...

or was this topic really about which brand you like best, not which brand makes the nicest kayaks?

I don't think that anyone is questioning that. If the big company has the kayak that kicks ass over everything else by all means buy it. The issue is that if things are fairly equal why not be a little thoughtful with your buys. The point is that you choose the company you buy your kayaks from rather than just get the easiest thing or the thing that the big company pushes. That is all I am saying. Like I said before if all things are fairly equal why not help a kayakers company, versus a bank or investment company.

i'm 110 lbs now.

I agree with you shane, i think that we should try to support smaller companies and smaller companies that are made in the USA or Canada. I met you at a potomac paddle sports clinic last year and i thought you were a cool guy and a good teacher.

I WOULD like to buy a LL creeker but i can't because the gus and jefe are too big. The diesel65 fits me the best. the planing hull makes it more manouvarable than the jefe. I understand that smaller people, under 120lbs are a much smaller market than the 160lb market, but it seems to me that playboats and medium creekers are a dime a dozen. Nomad, jefe, solo, rocker, mafia, all serve the same purpose and would work well for anyone in the 160lbs class. Sure they have small differences, you may say large, but they are all extremly workable.

Customers have little reason to buy your jefe over the jackson rocker. so many choices. I have so few choices. I looked at the vision 44 it has a weight range of 110-160lbs thats HUGE. I tried it it felt big. I saw the JK star max. weight of 130lbs. it felt big too but it seemed to be the closest to my weight range. I bought the boat, not because it was better than the vision44, ZG48, or EZG42 but because it was closest to my weight. BTW i was 95lbs, 4 months ago when i got it. I now want to start creeking, but there is nothing close to my weight.

If i were to find that one boat that was made for a smaller paddler, i would buy it. I gues i'll end up getting the smallest creeker out there the diesel 65. Not much of a creeker eh. There are other people in the same boat as me, They may be smaller women or just smaller guys. They buy whats small, if there was that small boat we would buy it without even looking at competition. Look at JK boats they make a few small boats and in my opinion that boosted them farther than they ever would have been otherwise. They have a good product, but no better than any other one. Parents get the same boat as their kids, Spouse get the same boats too. Start that trend for creekers too. Lots of people like creekers for rivers anyway. Creekers are better for learning to roll and run rivers than play boats.

thanks \
nathan

Thanks for the support Nathan. Hopefully I will be able to join you all again next year.

Just one guestion. Have you paddled the Jefe? Okay two guestions. Have you paddled the Rocker? There is a big difference in how they paddle and the durability. The Jefe is also now a proven creek boat and the Rocker has no history at all.

I think you know that all boats paddle quite a bit diffently. Be careful about grouping them all up. It shows that you haven't really checked them out.

I have said this many times. The Jefe has been successful at a very wide paddler weight range. My 120 pound wife loves the Jefe, as well as several other small paddlers that run the green all the time at all levels. 110- 130 and short as well.
Anyway thoughts for the day.
Shane

Shane has a great point. You should really think about who you are buying your kayak from. Are you buying it from paddlers making kayaks or a huge corporation making marketable product?

My vote is obviously for Fluid, as I'm the US distributor. Fluid is a small company that is run by kayakers and produces new and inovative kayaks.

In response to Nathan's creekboat dilema I have to say that the best boats for you would be the Java, Creeker 225, or the Small Solo. All of these boats are full on creekboats designed for small paddlers. The Small Solo was designed for the desingers 110 lb wife. Please understand that the Diesal is a great boat, but is not a full on creek boat! Springriver in DC has the Small Solo's with the new thighhooks in stock and for demo.

See you on the river,
Bryon

I also agree with Bryon about the Small Solo being a great boat for the little guy and I even got in at 190lbs and it was really fun still, even though I will be sticking with the large one for everything except micro creeking. Check it out and I bet you will love it. I paddled the Jeje and it was really good to, but it was slower than I thought it was going to be. It really fits into LL's line perfectly. I think that Nathan would be foolish not to at least give the small solo a try.
Oh yeah, and the big boys absolutely do not have the best boats out there. Maybe if they spent less time and money on advertising and more time and money on the water testing and developing new things it would be different, but as it stands, I think that dagger had some of the worst new boats last year and really haven't made much for a long time. The Nomad and Mamba are pretty good, but there are much better boats out there and the Crazy 88 speaks for itself since a lot of team guys are still in the kingpins of old. The Diesel is a good boat, but it is not the most comfortible and everyone is telling me that the project 52 is a good boat, but it doesn't fit a wide range of people. I am really just putting my 2 cents into it because I am bored at work. I really respect Shane and Bryon's opinion. They know a little bit. --Gavin

Yeah the creek boats that i have already mentioned are all very different. the point that i tried to make is that i would be willing to get anyone of them, if they were designed for someone smaller. I sat in the jefe and it felt, way too big, I don't even consider it to be an option. Joe S. told me that the solo was best fore people way bigger than me. I tried the java, it felt good but it is not available, also it is heavy. I understand that the diesel is not the best creek boat, but it is good enough for the east because even runs like Upper yough are not too steep. You just said that you could use the S solo at 190lbs. Prijon has bad outfitting and the creeker has bad turning. I heard fluid has plastic problems. Anyway im sorry for complaning, i guess i sort of think a new boat can be produced overnight. By the time you guys get to making a small kayak, i won;t need one any more. I guess ill try the Solo. BTW is it smaller than the diesel?

nathan

I was also wondering why you other kayak companies don't make boats with no holes like JK boats. I think that s a great gimmick.

The Diesel 65 is 3 inches longer and the same volume as the S Solo. The S Solo is a full on creek boat, where the Diesel is not. Fluid does not have any "plastic problems." I weight about 175 lbs and love the S Solo for tight east coast creeks, but I'm near the top of the weight range for the boat.

The Java and Creeker are both better "Creek Boats" for you than the Diesel. I'm sure you could find a Java if you looked around. The Creeker is pretty easy to find and is a really good boat for smaller people, I personally sink the thing quite a bit.

I guess it does depend on what you want to paddle, but there is really steep stuff in the Mid-Atlantic area. Stuff like the North Fork of the Blackwater are classic steep creeks in the area, and there is many more less run really steep stuff, ask Joe S. about it.

Companies don't make boats with out holes in them like JK for two reasons. One, like you said it is a "gimmick". Two, outfitting can be way stronger, more adjustable, and make the boat more rigid with attaching it to the hull.

Bryon
"no gimmicks...no hype...just...FLUID"

Ok,

i know the diesel is not a creek boat. I tried the jackson hero and the LL jefe today. Hero=absolute crap. The jefe was nice but obviously too big. I will try the S solo next time. I was told that i wasn't heavy enough to sink it far enough to get good stability. I think i was told that. Anyway, java's are hard to find unfortunatly and the also weigh a ton! I try the boats on little falls. It's the only thing running nearby.

We drill the holes in the boat because it is the best way to solidly attach seats and thighbraces to the boat. If there is any leakage at all it is well worth the difference in sturdiness.

Just thought I would answer that one.
Shane

Apparantly jackson has a new stiffer seating plate. The diesel has only one screw attaching outfitting, I think. So i guess that isn't very sturdy. Jefe is quite nice, congrats to you or whoever designed it, Johnnie Kern maybe. Good if i was a few more pounds or strong enough to portage the behemotth.