Author Topic: Laser Shaper  (Read 9103 times)

surfcowboy

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 06:46:17 PM »
That's the good thing, it'll be pretty quick to get a feel for the Z access and if that works, then move forward.

And UK, this takes nothing away from the unit you've built, it's amazing but far beyond what any hobbyist would normally do. I remember when I went to JJ Abram's studio and he had a 3d printer, no one had one because they were expensive or crazy hard to build, but he had one way before the rest of us. Now people have them in their garages all over the place.

I think the key is in UK's post. The electronics were cheap and easy. The physical frame was half the cost. Exactly, if the electronics can account for some flex and play in the frame, then you can greatly reduce the overall cost. Real time positioning used to be expensive, but if you've seen a drone fly in the wind lately you know that that's not that big of a deal.

It won't be easy, but if you had a group, the electronics aren't impossible.

I compare it exactly to drones vs. RC helicopters. RC units took serious skills to fly and perfect conditions (no wind!) but now a drone can hover and adapt to the wind and other disruptions in basically real time because the sensors and software are better than a human.

Might not be easy to mount a large cutter well, but I'll bet that a guy like me could put up with a lot lower power cutter too.

In the meantime Pono, I'm looking at setting up a little hotwire rig here. If you see me on CNN rabid in the streets know that the fumes got to me.

PonoBill

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 07:35:57 PM »
the inspiration for this approach probably trickles down from my involvement with autonomous drones. Different tech, but a similar idea. It may well be that we'll need to use gyros and accelerometers to correct for movement when the head is cutting, so the tech may not be all that different.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

supuk

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2014, 11:44:34 PM »
Like I say it's more the cutting forces and the resonace issues you will have problems using a router type machine perhaps it would work better on a  plasma , laser or water jet. while the drive continues While you think cutting time is un important unfortunately materials all like to be cut at certain speeds and with different rpm of the bit other wise you get all sorts of problem , cut foam to slow and you can create to mch heat and friction and end up melting the foam and gumming up the bit which then will destroy the rest in seconds and same with plastics in that they melt back together and wood it will burn, it's all about chip load. I think if you could get it to cut foam with a machine that is so flexable your speeds would be so slow it would be faster to hand shape. Generally most machines still require some one to be present to watch over it especially on this sort of level just so you don't burn your garage down. If you want to do a cheap build there are plenty of options with mdf ect being used but it all depends how precise you want to be and what you want to cut. There is a machine called the board box which is part mdf but with sups being so large and in the end wanting something more versatile I didn't go with that sort of thing. Perhaps turn the idea into a huge 3d printer instead and start printing boards that would at least take out all the hard work of glassing maybe?

Tom

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2014, 01:27:28 PM »
Maybe you can shape with a chainsaw robot instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haz7rilcjHA

surfcowboy

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2014, 02:12:02 PM »
Chainsaw Robot just makes me smile.

UK, you raise great points, too bad (good?) Pono is just too stubborn/crazy/inquisitive to let it lie. ;)

Pono, I'm thinking that if the Z was on a screw or other semi fixed vertical track that would help. Maybe an articulated arm to relieve the weight and stabilize the motor a bit? Then X/Y could be calculated and driven.

The more I roll it around in my head the more it seems like more, but lighter weight track parts with the real-time data correcting.

In the future something like that robot will be feasible for sure. But for now we gotta hack.

55NSup

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2014, 02:19:32 AM »
In regards to cutting forces, speed and energy generation.  How about thinking likr the loawn mower robots?  They cut only a very little grass,  have  small blades. By making it slow, you need less energy. Works for us hobbyists.

The way I shape now is pretty effective. Design in 3D on Shape3D or Solidworks, export outline and side view templates via illustrator. Have a friend make the templates on his 2D CnC router( this is the part that makes it effective- without his help I'd have a big job to make the templates by hand.) then I hotwire and handshape. 

I really enjoy the hand shaping part of the process.

That said, I sign up to be a beta tester if you create " home builder kit/ plans/ drawings".  I'd try to make one and use it.
I dont have any electronics knowhow, but am pretty good at building stuff and 3D CAD.

BTW Bill. I would still love to get plans for the auto pilot you were working on. Project 987?

supuk

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 07:23:16 AM »
In regards to cutting forces, speed and energy generation.  How about thinking likr the loawn mower robots?  They cut only a very little grass,  have  small blades. By making it slow, you need less energy. Works for us hobbyists.

The way I shape now is pretty effective. Design in 3D on Shape3D or Solidworks, export outline and side view templates via illustrator. Have a friend make the templates on his 2D CnC router( this is the part that makes it effective- without his help I'd have a big job to make the templates by hand.) then I hotwire and handshape. 

I really enjoy the hand shaping part of the process.

That said, I sign up to be a beta tester if you create " home builder kit/ plans/ drawings".  I'd try to make one and use it.
I dont have any electronics knowhow, but am pretty good at building stuff and 3D CAD.

BTW Bill. I would still love to get plans for the auto pilot you were working on. Project 987?

Like I said it pretty much comes down to cutting speeds you would need to find a different method of cutting the foam. With current router bits that are used they like to be run at high rpm and at very fast feed rates to get a clean cut to prevent over heating ripping and tearing. I opted for a water cooled spindle to work with the long run times that's capable of 24000 rpm but it's probably weights 5kg for the spindle on its

 http://youtu.be/DYnMSrEaIX4

PonoBill

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2014, 09:12:21 AM »
Actually the RC Rudder/autopilot is operating. Project 439 is making a great enclosure for it with my laser 3d printer. I want to house the servo, rudder quadrant, battery and electronics in a low profile bunker-like box that will be less of a body collision hazard and print it with a clear port for an LED screen for speed readout. I'll get that up and running as soon as I settle in at Ponohouse.

I'll make the schematic, parts kit and arduino code available to anyone that wants to play. The current version isn't cheap to build. that would take more development. The transceivers as xBees and it uses a micro arduino board, but it's no more than $200. A cheap version would use the kind of transmitter and receiver that car remotes use and the coding for eliminating spurious signals would run on the arduino that's already there. Adding a GPS module capable of doppler shift speed measurement would probably add a hundred bucks. Anyway, sure. In about a month.

Lawn mower robots are a good analogy. They use randomized mowing patterns within detected boundaries to cut grass. They cut a days worth of growth every day. If they worked differently they'd have to be much heavier and more sturdily built. And if they followed a pattern they'd have to know exactly where they are on the X-Y plane, which would require more expensive electronics. Since they only cut a small amount of growth there's no clippings. By changing the notion of how grass is cut they could be built very differently.

I've got one in my garage, a leftover from my prior home in Portland, where it saved me a lot of money on lawnmowing service. Here in Hood River we have three unconnected lawns that would require a pretty smart robot to navigate. that's probably project 1544 or so.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

55NSup

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2014, 01:32:06 PM »
Bill, I'd put out 200 bucks to give the auto pilot a try. The housing I could make myself, as I have solidworks and access to highend 3d printers.

About the milling speeds. The eps I use is super soft. How about a slow speed  grinding disk on edge.

PonoBill

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 04:40:53 PM »
As soon as I settle in I'll put the plans together and publish them. It's an easy build, and once you start playing with arduino programming it's hard to stop. I wrote the software to be very readable--I have to since I tend to put these things down for a while and come back to them.

I expected to do a rotary planing cutter initially--not a vertical mill--but I got distracted thinking about other applications of the shaper and thought a mill head made more sense. For example the new quad/wing drone I'm working on would be nice to mill from dense foam to make the mold plug. I need to experiment some and see what makes the most sense. Looking around on the web it seems the longer I wait, the more likely it is that someone will do this for me. There's a fair amount of chat going on about free roaming robotic milling using laser positioning. No track at all. Just a walking or rolling robot figuring out how high this particular spot should be. Roomba indeed.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

stoneaxe

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2014, 05:16:05 AM »
UK.....I don't doubt anything you've said but I know my brother. His true genius lies in having such a broad base of knowledge, he looks at things differently because of it. He doesn't just think outside the box.....he's outside the box that the box came in.
Bob

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PonoBill

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2014, 06:11:40 AM »
Or, as my teachers said "unfocused". These are great times to be an over-enthusiastic whack job. Knowledge and effort are crowdsourced. Money too, if it comes to that. The whackier the idea is, the more people are interested.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

supuk

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2014, 12:12:51 PM »
UK.....I don't doubt anything you've said but I know my brother. His true genius lies in having such a broad base of knowledge, he looks at things differently because of it. He doesn't just think outside the box.....he's outside the box that the box came in.

It all depends on what you are trying to do and how much time and money you have to burn. If you want to build a and develop a machine with new technologies ect that's one thing but you could spend years and thousands developing it. I have spent over two years now researching designing and building mine that is all relative conventional and I'm still not quite there and let's face it the markets not ever going to be huge for a foam only machine simply because the rest of the DIY board building process is actually a lot harder than the shaping stage. For myself I wanted to build a machine with a fairly full proof design with components that would give me as few problems and posable with the greatest accuracy and relatively tried and tested. I have a mountain of ideas that I would love to try but  I had neither time or money to spend on experimenting and I wanted a machine I could use as soon as possible. obviously bill has a bit more of booth it just depends how far you want to go but you could easily spend years experimenting. If you we'd to build something as lightly built as originally stated you would need to literally start from scratch because a conventional router design which generally gives the best results and freedom will not work which was why I mentioned it at the start and wanted to just make him aware of this. Spinning disks do work but still have a large amount of torque to deal with , the quality of cut is not as good ether and you are restricted on shapes you can cut by the size of the disk so not a great option.

PonoBill

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2014, 01:23:25 PM »
The proof is always in the results, and I'm a long way from seeing anything there. I'll play with preliminary stuff while I'm in Maui, but I have a lot of other projects I'm committed to.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

stoneaxe

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Re: Laser Shaper
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2014, 06:22:43 AM »
and again there I know my brother.....lots of 3/4's finished ideas hanging around at all times ever since I was a kid. Though I have to say that with all the time he now has on his retired hands we seem to be seeing more results....even more 3/4's finished projects.... ::) ;)

I have some serious interest in this one bro....I'm building a shaping bay in any new house we do...so move this up in the line please.
Bob

8-4 Vec, 9-0 SouthCounty, 9-8 Starboard, 10-4 Foote Triton, 10-6 C4, 12-6 Starboard, 14-0 Vec (babysitting the 18-0 Speedboard) Ke Nalu Molokai, Ke Nalu Maliko, Ke Nalu Wiki Ke Nalu Konihi

 


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