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Topic: Paddling fundamentals  (Read 11331 times)

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Hydrospider

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Im in the RTM Disco and also roll the Cobra Strike. Tarpon 140/160 is my eventual goal.

Ive been working on my hand roll as well.
Getting closer but having difficulty. Any help from this sites experts is welcome.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 07:21:17 PM by Hydrospider »


Squidder K

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Very engaging thread, sorry I had missed this earlier until now.  Jan has been working on my strokes and I can see a difference in the speed and power and the lack of effort needed to move my SIK.  I already have a set of thigh straps but rarely ever used them, and got tangled up in them crabbing once and did not use them again.  I think it is time to revisit this concept further. I also want to take more classes on working the surf, it is an area where I do suck and anything over 6 inches seems to throw my Quest into a tail spin coming in, lack of thigh braces kind of gives me a fear of leaning into it.
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Hydrospider

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 I like seeing that there are others who are interested in becoming better paddlers.
Certainly with all of the sponsored kayakers on this site there will be folks qualified to help those of us who want to learn how to be stronger boaters.

I find the SOT significantly more difficult to roll than the SIKs. It is just another level of connection to the boat when using a SIK. This is becoming even more apparent when trying to hand roll.
Here is another failure documented.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 07:22:32 PM by Hydrospider »


Squidder K

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Hey Spider thanks for the post, very educational.  On separate note over the years have you tried different paddles, and what has your success been with various shapes and lengths?
Kevin Storm
"A bad day fishing, still beats a good day of work!"
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Hydrospider

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 The paddle is a topic that I believe could justify its own section in a kayak forum, or at least its own thread.
I enjoy paddles of various blade shapes and paddle lengths. I try to choose the right paddle for the boat and conditions that I am in. Typically, I like a big blade that has a lot of authority over the boat.
I use the (Werner) Corryvreckan, the Sherpa,or the Saltwood paddle called "DoubleHappiness" most often.
Right now I am using the long shafted CorryV to improve my roll on the Disco. Once I become more profficient Ill switch back to the short shaft Sherpa that is a much better length to paddle the low rider.
There are so many variables when selecting paddles that it makes it near impossible to recommend any 1 product for someone. But, If I had to pick a favorite from my quiver, it would be the Saltwood.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 06:44:57 PM by Hydrospider »


Hydrospider

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I used the Saltwood yesterday and had 0 success. I am just not there yet.
It was great for sculling and sprints but my technique has to be a lot cleaner to roll with the short shaft paddles. By the time I got around to working on the hand roll, I had nothing left and made way to many mental mistakes to have any hope.  Back to the extended CorryV. Disappointed but not defeated.


wizz

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I've never been a fan of long paddles, or wide boats. I have a steep angle and I just feel more in control with a short paddle. I have only tried the bent shaft for one rapid on the sf American, would like to give that a further go round. I see you use mostly bent shafts. Can you tell a difference on wrist fatigue?

I still haven't tried to roll a SOT, but I was stoked when I had both sides first try this year after a long hiatus from ww.
"The howling tide of unreason beats against pure fact with incredible fury"-Terrence Mckenna


Hydrospider

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Wizz
Big boats need love too and its takes a big paddle to love them right.

  The bent grip feels like a more natural/nuetral position for me than the straight. I also like that the angles help my hands find the perfect grip quickly. This helps a lot when I am fishing and not always paddle in hand. I like the paddle blades feathered to a greater degree with greater paddle length.
With the right amount of blade feathering and the right length for me and the boat, Im able to quickly find that smoother paddling zone.
The 240 CorryV is way too long for the Disco. The 194 Sherpa is just right for everything but trying to roll it. for now.
I get that the short stick does give a feeling of greater connection and it promotes a higher, more dominate angle, but the long paddle does have its place. Especially now, with so many qajaq companies supporting the elevated lounge chairs. I really enjoy sitting up higher for fishing. The 240 isn't quite enough for me on the Jackson Coosa but I manage. I had the chance to test some 250+ last year and a 250 is perfect. Werner is making a 250 but I would like it with a bigger blade and bent.
 I also enjoy being the only moving part on the boat, so none of mine have a rudder system. If I am in the T160, its really nice to extend the big 240 for that grand sweep or reach WAY back for the stern rudder.
You might really enjoy the Coosa, if you're interested in cross pollinating some WW and kayak fishing. Class III fishing?  This boat is full figured but responsive and perfect for river fishing/camping.

Couldn't help but notice RVs post with the Dagger.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=58833.msg663899#msg663899
Could be a game changer. Class IV fishing?

 


« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 06:48:51 PM by Hydrospider »


wizz

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I actually have a SOAR 14'inflatable kayak for river fishing up to class III, and a longer paddle would beneficial there. For class  IV I want to be in a ww boat, and plan on getting either a pyranha burn or jackson karma for camp/fishing ww. Let me know if you're interested in ww overnight trips. Tons of opportunities once the rain comes.

I'm sure a bent shaft would be nice after some time spent, but I'm so used to the feather and ovaling on my straight shaft that it's hard to change, I know exactly what position that paddle is in just by grabbing it. But it's old and showing quite a bit of wear from ww. I will not have a plastic blade paddle though. Too much energy lost as plastic gives, and fiberglass or carbon is so much lighter which makes a huge difference after a long day. 
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I used to use a 220 but eventually went to a 230 for my T140.
I learned as a touring paddler in SF, so it was all about feathered blades and low paddle angles and so that is my style to this day.
SoCal cave paddling is more about wide blades and quick accelaration and high angles, so I'm always a bit off at first and it takes me a day to get used to it. Then I get home and my normal paddle goes pretty vertical for a few hours :smt044

I had been concerned that the 230 might feel too long, but for me at 5'9" it is perfect.

I don't think I've ever tried a bent shaft paddle but was always curious about them.
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wizz

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Wizz
Big boats need love too and sometime its takes a big paddle to love them right.
But first, the bent grip feels like a more natural/nuetral position for me than the straight. I also like that the angles help my hands find the perfect grip quickly. This helps a lot when I am fishing and not always paddle in hand. I like the paddle blades feathered to a greater degree with greater paddle length.
With the right amount of blade feathering and the right length for me and the boat, Im able to quickly find that smoother paddling zone.
The 240 CorryV is way too long for the Disco. The 194 Sherpa is just right for everything but trying to roll it.
for now.
I get that the short stick does give a feeling of greater connection and it promotes a higher, more efficient angle, but the long paddle does have its place. Especially now, with so many qajaq companies supporting the elevated lounge chairs. I really enjoy sitting up higher for fishing. The 240 isn't quite enough for me on the Jackson Coosa but I manage. I had the chance to test some 250+ last year and a 250 is perfect. Werner is making a 250 but I would like it with a big blade and bent.
 I  also enjoy being the only moving part on the boat, so none of mine have a rudder system. If I am in the T160, its really nice to extend the big 240 for that grand sweep or reach WAY back for the stern rudder.
You might really enjoy the Coosa, if you're interested in cross pollinating some WW and kayak fishing. Class III fishing?  This boat is full figured but responsive and perfect for river fishing/camping.

Couldn't help but notice RVs post with the Dagger.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=58833.msg663899#msg663899
Could be a game changer. Class IV fishing?

Class IV fishing would be this guy for the SOTers would be this guy:
http://www.fluidkayaks.com/us/kayaks/whitewater/do-it-now.html

"The howling tide of unreason beats against pure fact with incredible fury"-Terrence Mckenna


Hydrospider

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Thanks for sharing that link Wizz. That certainly looks like the right boat for the job.

I actually have a SOAR 14'inflatable kayak for river fishing up to class III, and a longer paddle would beneficial there. For class  IV I want to be in a ww boat, and plan on getting either a pyranha burn or jackson karma for camp/fishing ww. Let me know if you're interested in ww overnight trips. Tons of opportunities once the rain comes. 

I hope you are able to fish out of WW SIK and please document. Exciting stuff.

 I had once believed that I could fish steeper water in a WW boat. It is the right boat for the terrain, but it was the wrong boat for me to try and enjoy fishing in. I struggled with not having quick access and/or quick storage of my primary tools. Taking off the skirt that often is not fun and I was also asking for trouble. I even had a drift anchor project started-


but dropped it after I realized that a SOT would be more fun/less frustrating for fishing. The anchor was a pretty reckless project anyway.
The Coosa is marketed to be ready for class III with a skilled pilot. Im not sure that I am that guy but the boat is absolutely capable.

"Seals" does make a kangaroo pouch that is part of the skirt. It might help when fishing from a WW SIK.
Not that I am "Captain Safety", but fishing and inflatables makes my warning bell ring. I do enjoy rafting but have never had the chance to fish on any of those trips. I have spotted trophy class fish between rapids.....access.

I'm sure a bent shaft would be nice after some time spent, but I'm so used to the feather and ovaling on my straight shaft that it's hard to change, I know exactly what position that paddle is in just by grabbing it. But it's old and showing quite a bit of wear from ww. I will not have a plastic blade paddle though. Too much energy lost as plastic gives, and fiberglass or carbon is so much lighter which makes a huge difference after a long day. 

I used to use a 220 but eventually went to a 230 for my T140.
I learned as a touring paddler in SF, so it was all about feathered blades and low paddle angles and so that is my style to this day.
SoCal cave paddling is more about wide blades and quick accelaration and high angles, so I'm always a bit off at first and it takes me a day to get used to it. Then I get home and my normal paddle goes pretty vertical for a few hours :smt044

I had been concerned that the 230 might feel too long, but for me at 5'9" it is perfect.

I don't think I've ever tried a bent shaft paddle but was always curious about them.

Every time that I change paddles, there is that initial awkwardness and some needed time to get reacquainted. It passes quickly though. A 230 would be as short as I would like to go on a T140 or similar craft, and its probably perfect for the standard issue human male.

Sean, The elevated lawn chairs make it challenging for me to have any other angle but high, and I really enjoy it. I think it has helped me be a better paddler in other boats by getting my angle steep again. But, when I did get back into another boat there also was some re-acclimation time.

When the bent shaft helps your hands find the right grip space, it becomes even more helpful when you are wearing thicker gloves.

The current direction of this thread had me thinking about other influences on me when choosing the right paddle.
One that I thought was interesting was fishing with Team B-port. All are bigger dudes and carry a long CorryV.  Without one I would have trouble keeping up and that would lead to certain chastisement.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 05:15:14 PM by Hydrospider »


MR. MAGOO

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  I've been to the dux bouy a few times in my Jive. The salmon feel cold against your leg. Did you see the recent report of the two guys in a tandem sit in kayak out at that bouy? They had one over 30 lbs. and another nice one. I almost asked them about the paddle in with all that fish.


wizz

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I'm a fly guy on the rivers so I usually use my kayak to get between rapids get out and fish, although a big stable karma would probably be easier to fish out of in pools. Class I and II are no problem fishing from the inflatable, and I have a patch kit just in case.  :smt003

Much easier IMO to carry gear and fish from my soar than my plastic SOT in moving water,  the inflatable easily rides over everything, and I can take a buddy. I put a hole in the scupper of my plastic SOT on the SF Trinity and have only used the inflatable since for I/II fishing.
"The howling tide of unreason beats against pure fact with incredible fury"-Terrence Mckenna


Hydrospider

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 Thought that I would share some of the resources that I have found a lot of information and inspiration in.
My top 5 books

Whiting                  Receational Kayaking (the ultimate guide)

Mattos                    Kayak Surfing

Hutchenson             Complete book of Seakayaking   

Kallner & Jackson    Basic Essentials in Kayaking Whitewater   

Bascom                 Waves and Beaches

For a light campfire book, I enjoyed Addisons  "Kayakers book of wisdom"

There are also some videos that I find a lot of value in watching.

Kent Ford                In the Surf  AND Whitewater Self Defense.

The Jacksons           Kayaking Strokes & Concepts

Jeff Little                 River Kayak Fishing Skills

S Null & J McBride    Kayak Fishing (the ultimate guide)

Dennis Spike           The Kayak Fishing Video (for validating the bowline.)

And it was Captain Ken Dauberts vids that really fired up my interests in documenting adventures.
(Him and Abking)

Again, not all of this stuff directly focuses on fishing in kayaks,but there is a ton of knowledge about hydrology here and I believe that it is important to understand how water works.



 

« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 08:00:50 PM by Hydrospider »


 

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