Author Topic: Recommend a stable, not-too-heavy board for choppy river conditions please  (Read 12436 times)

SeaMe

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If the specs are identical the volumes are identical. Weight has nothing to do with volume.

Mathematically accurate, but would, for example, foam covered in laminate be able to float as much/more than a solid wood board with the same volume (ignore stability of said boards for the moment)?

I'm not sure how helpful any volume charts or recommendations are beyond being a very general starting point, since two boards could have similar volumes (as well as lengths and widths, for that matter) and much different stability.

Agreed. My frustration stems from the fact that for most boards I find a lot of ad copy instead of actual reviews, so I'm somewhat forced to rely on the manufacturer's stated starting point, which is sometimes wildly unrealistic either in a conservative or liberal direction.

A generalized chart for weight and volume for paddlers could be beneficial but there are many variables at play
Don't I know it! Hence the "demo, demo, demo" chant on the forums.

Maybe instead of a chart by volume, what we really need is a list of manufacturers who are conservative in their estimates, manufacturers who are realistic in their estimates, and manufacturers who have lost their marbles.  ;D

“I must be a mermaid, Rango. I have no fear of depths and a great fear of shallow living.” ― Anaïs Nin
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Fanatic Fly HRS 10'6"
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pdxmike

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I was thinking I may have bit a bit harsh about BIC, because although they said their 12-6 Wing was "ideal for beginners up to 260 pounds", elsewhere on their website they included weight charts for each model of the Wing and said much more conservatively, "Max rider weight for good stability":

But then, in their Race-Tec race board series, they went nuts.  They have a weight-range chart for each of their six race boards, with the "ideal" weight for each.  Nothing wrong with that, except that the "ideal" weight for every model is 180 pounds:
--14' Race pro x 27.5"? Ideal weight 180.  14 x 25.5? 180.  14 x 23.5? 180.
--Or, going down to 12-6? 180, whether it's 28.5, 26.5 or 24.5. 
Personally, I have a hard time believing that if the 14' x 27.5 is ideal for a 180 lb. paddler, that the same board at 12-6 x 24.5 is also ideal for the same paddler. I think they would have been better off just skipping the whole thing, rather than just inventing a number.
http://www.bicsup.com/products/sup-race-tec,3,111.html

Painterpatt02

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I don't river paddle but I do go into the Gulf. Newbie at best, 8 times out. I was in 2/3ft waves today on my 12'6" Bic Wing and it handled the waves great. I was even trying to jump back to surfer stance for turns. (yep I got wet lol) Been on flat water with me, 6'1" 170lbs and my little girls about 55 and 70lbs no problem. lil heavy at 34 lbs but the way it's made it's durable as hell, I would imagine you want a tough finish in a river. Rocks and stones?

SeaMe

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I would imagine you want a tough finish in a river. Rocks and stones?

The Navesink is deep enough that rocks and stones don't present a problem. If the river I SUP'ed was that shallow I'd convert to an inflatable.
“I must be a mermaid, Rango. I have no fear of depths and a great fear of shallow living.” ― Anaïs Nin
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>
Fanatic Fly HRS 10'6"
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Ichabod Spoonbill

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What about the shoreline and your launches?
Pau Hana 11' Big EZ Ricochet (Beluga)

SeaMe

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What about the shoreline and your launches?

Most of the launches are sandy. I don't know if that's natural or if the township(s) intervene, but old wooden posts/remainders of destroyed docks (Sandy) are more of a hazard than rocks. Of course, I recently discovered a new launch—my favorite—where there are plenty of rocks and the chunky asphalt remains of the paved road that lead to it. I can walk my board out past the rocks there during high tide, but two steps past the sharp stuff the bottom is that wonderfully mushy stuff that lets you sink knee deep with no effort and keeps your flip-flops as part of the bargain. It also stains...they don't call it Red Bank for nothin'.
“I must be a mermaid, Rango. I have no fear of depths and a great fear of shallow living.” ― Anaïs Nin
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HPWA Jack

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Lengthy subject with a zillion points of view.

In the simplest of terms:

Stability and speed responsivness glide and other good news stand in opposition to each other.  Not just me, but the 'master shaper' opens with the same gag.

So what gives stability?  Width, length, volume, and surface area in contact with the water.
If you are serious about paddling outside of the surf, and you can get it up on the car, stock is the way to go (12'6")
31 is wide and stable, depending on the other issues mentioned.
28 or less favors response at the expense of stability (race boards).

We have the tools of area, concavity, blocky tails, and blunt entries to breed stability back into the shape and width.
There is a bottom line, Sea me.  Go to the races and try every board the manufacturers and dealers will let you ride.  The other option is to find a custom shop and tell 'em what you told us.

Just keep in mind, the hot board that makes you feel the glide is also gonna be a bit more difficult in the chop.

Oh yea, did I mention rocker.  Those numbers make a huge difference when the wind blows on the river.  More rocker, better performance in downwind chop, but less glide in the calm water.

I'll bet you are confused now.  You should be!  Be patient.  There are no easy answers.
If there are a lot of other people on your river, watch what they have. 
Width
volume
rail hard v soft
rocker
area (pointy or kinda parallel)

With all of that swimming in your head, you might just grab a demo and know its right.
But, please consider buying American made stuff so that poorly paid men can eak out a living.

BaronPaddle

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The same volume board will float the same weight, just remember that the board is part of the weight you are floating, so a heavier will be able to float that much less paddler.


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HPWA Jack

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So, Seame,

It was a good weekend to buy a board.  Whaddija get?

I've been playing about with a radical cockpit design.  Drop decks are the thing for racing.  So, I dropped the deck and put high sides, instead of the rolled edge.  Not quite as canoe like as the thing that Terrel built, but the cockpit replaces volume.  The sides are thin and allow you to get your feet to the edges, instead of on the rolled edge.  I like full freedom for feet to move about.

I think volume may be the most confusing element to shape.  I don't think many people really understand.  Of course, I'm not a surf shaper, so I'm just talkin about racing, training, cruising designs.

But, I see specs for weight and height to go with volume and I cannot help but think that some marketing people are talkin out their butts.

When you say choppy, do you mean choppy sloppy, or just choppy?  Another thing to think about is how tapered the board might be.  More parallel, more surface area, more stability.  Did you look at Yolo?  I think you will find them on your coast.

yugi

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I was thinking I may have bit a bit harsh about BIC, because although they said their 12-6 Wing was "ideal for beginners up to 260 pounds", elsewhere on their website they included weight charts for each model of the Wing and said much more conservatively, "Max rider weight for good stability":

But then, in their Race-Tec race board series, they went nuts.  They have a weight-range chart for each of their six race boards, with the "ideal" weight for each.  Nothing wrong with that, except that the "ideal" weight for every model is 180 pounds:
--14' Race pro x 27.5"? Ideal weight 180.  14 x 25.5? 180.  14 x 23.5? 180.
--Or, going down to 12-6? 180, whether it's 28.5, 26.5 or 24.5. 
Personally, I have a hard time believing that if the 14' x 27.5 is ideal for a 180 lb. paddler, that the same board at 12-6 x 24.5 is also ideal for the same paddler. I think they would have been better off just skipping the whole thing, rather than just inventing a number.
http://www.bicsup.com/products/sup-race-tec,3,111.html

Cool! That means I have 5 lbs leeway to gain so I can have as many beers as I want (pretty much do already).

And since when do you take any kind of sports marketing seriously, eh?

SeaMe

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So, Seame,

It was a good weekend to buy a board.  Whaddija get?

I'm still weighing my options, I don't whip out my wallet to spend $1K+ lightly. I'm thinking about a Sirena 12'6" or something from the Fanatic family. I plan to have a chat with Jim K soon since he's familiar with both brands.

When you say choppy, do you mean choppy sloppy, or just choppy?

You're going to have to explain the difference before I can answer.

Another thing to think about is how tapered the board might be.  More parallel, more surface area, more stability.  Did you look at Yolo?  I think you will find them on your coast.

Other than magazine advertisements, I don't know much about YOLO boards and I haven't heard anything about the boards (yet) to convince me to trek down to the local dealer (over an hour away).

The same volume board will float the same weight, just remember that the board is part of the weight you are floating, so a heavier will be able to float that much less paddler.

Bingo! Now it makes more sense. Thanks.
“I must be a mermaid, Rango. I have no fear of depths and a great fear of shallow living.” ― Anaïs Nin
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>
Fanatic Fly HRS 10'6"
Fanatic Ray HRS BVI 12'0" ヾ(@°▽°@)ノ

yugi

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The master himself on making a board that's easy to ride for an average guy. This might add color to a few of the explanations you are looking for (hint: there is no one answer).



Yes, his boards tend to be "magic". They are easy to ride, they work, and always seem fast. Pick your program. Check one out.

(old video, but the ideas remain the same. he just has newer boards - the market for them came.)


HPWA Jack

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Thanks for askin, Seame,

I am a garage shaper with my own ideas about shape for lakes rivers and sloughs.  As you are not likely to fly to my coast just to come out and play with me, I'll tell you what I know about the brands you mentioned.

Yolo is your coast, down south, Florida.  But, they have a presence here with a really cool lead guy that I like.  I got to hang out in the factory when they were building prototype boards.  I like the shape philosophy and the product.  As you are not buying a race board, I do not have the specifics to send you to the shop to see a model.

Fanatic, same deal, except I never worked on thier boards.  They are quite respectable and competitive with thier graphite race boards.  They are kicking some butt around the buoys.

If I could get you to my house to splash off my dock, I would put you on a 12'6" by 30 fast cruiser and see how you liked it.  Then I would take you to a venue that has comparable chop and slop to your river.  I got my wake up call at South Lake Tahoe Saturday to remind me of the difference between wakes, wind chop, and the slop that happens when the two combine.  I thought my race board did great.  If I only had a real racer to put on it, I might graduate out of the garage into marketing.  Ah, but alas.

I personally think that you, and most other consumer paddlers think too much about branding, price, and even construction.  Shape, shape, and shape should be your first concern.  No body else is you.  No where elese is your favorite venue.

My advice is to find someone who knows your typical conditions and will fit you to perfection. 
Then maybe consider weight in fiberglass for durability v pleasant to carry, resale based on reputation, and last of all, looks.
Price is important, no doubt about it.  I hate to hear about serious paddlers seriously considering imported boards.

We are a community.  We need to stick together.  If you can find a local dealer with connections to a local shaper, that is worth the effort to make you feel good about the system, even if it cost a couple of hundred more.  The local guys, if there are any, are your source for happiness, unless of course you know them and don't like them.

SeaMe

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I personally think that you, and most other consumer paddlers think too much about branding, price, and even construction.  Shape, shape, and shape should be your first concern.  No body else is you.  No where elese is your favorite venue.

Oh, I don't give a rats ass about branding. If I gravitate to Fanatic it's because my experience with the brand has been positive. My first (and so far, only) board is a Fanatic Fly, and it's a wonderful board. This newbie has been tough on equipment, but the HRS skin has held up splendidly. The beauty of the Boardworks Sirena does appeal to me, but the only reason it's on the shortlist is that I paddled one and thought it offered better stability and speed (than the Fly) for the type of water I paddle most often.

I understand what you're saying about shapers, but I think that's overkill for someone as new to the sport as I am. Riders go custom for the subtle nuances shapers can offer. As an advanced beginner, there's very little "nuance" going on here—it's all about not banging rails and not falling off. 

Price has to be a consideration because I don't have the luxury of spending $2000 on a board and then deciding three weeks later it doesn't work for me and I want to buy another one. 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 07:49:31 PM by SeaMe »
“I must be a mermaid, Rango. I have no fear of depths and a great fear of shallow living.” ― Anaïs Nin
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>
Fanatic Fly HRS 10'6"
Fanatic Ray HRS BVI 12'0" ヾ(@°▽°@)ノ

Ichabod Spoonbill

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Jack, you make some great points, but I want to nitpick one. I think durability is very important. That may be because I paddle in very rocky areas, but it's paramount for any future SUP I buy. For most people it's not as much an issue, but it's probably number one for me.
Pau Hana 11' Big EZ Ricochet (Beluga)

 


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