Author Topic: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....  (Read 7144 times)

TallDude

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Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« on: September 23, 2018, 09:47:35 AM »
I went out for a quick afternoon paddle yesterday and the wind was up. Probably 15 mph sustained and capping with good size ground swell mixed in. I got caught up in the rare (for us around here) downwind bliss on my 18 x 25 Hobie unlimited. Everything was in the south direction and lined up. About a mile out of the harbor, I remembered I was supposed to meet some people for dinner. I decided to turn around and head back. Nothing doing..... My board was so weather-vaned I could get to turn at all. I tried stopping and reverse paddling. I actually paddled straight backwards. The board said nothing doing again. I tried the big gradual circle turn. Hard right paddle and head towards the shore. That wasn't working either. The capping side chop once I got perpendicular to the wind and swell was brutal on my 25" wide board.
Now I'm a few miles from the harbor and time was not on my side. I dropped to my knees and tried all the same stuff. Not working. So I laid down and scooted up on to the nose of my board. I Dropped my arms into the water and tried putting on the brakes. The tail started coming around because I was so far forward. Success! I was finally headed into the wind and towards the harbor. I stood up and just ground it out at about 2-3 mph all the way back. It ended up being just under 5 miles and my little afternoon cruise ended up taking me 2 hours.
Too bad I didn't have my phone, I could continued the DW and had some pick me up.   
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

Area 10

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2018, 10:14:43 AM »
As you discovered, it’s just a matter of being able to get forward enough. I have had my custom UL board made with this in mind - to make sure I can stand and comfortably paddle a loooong way in front of the handle if I need to. The wind here might not drop beneath 15 knots for weeks on end, so it really focusses your mind on this issue. Rudders don’t help when it gets to that stage. The only thing is to get forward, lift the tail a bit and move the pivot point of the board (which is you) so that it has changed sufficiently that the board will turn into the wind. Whenever I see a board now that has a cockpit that hardly extends beyond the handle, I keep on walking...

PonoBill

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2018, 10:57:39 AM »
I can turn around and paddle the other way waiting for friends in 35+ wind. Rudder. I'm sure I could eventually do what you were doing, but I like rudders on unlimiteds. I have two that don't have them. I consider them flatwater or downbreeze boards.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

burchas

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2018, 11:57:27 AM »
I deal with high winds (25+) coming from unexpected directions quite often. The one thing
I always carry with me is the Abuelo ventral (Aercore ventral), I can paddle into the wind or
keep same trajectory in cross-wind just by pushing on the rail, thus maintaining optimal trim
for the board and maximize on my paddling effort.

When conditions turn on us like that, the Bullets with the rudders can't keep up.
in progress...

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2018, 12:25:11 PM »
THE DAGGER BOARD OPTION IS THE SOLUTION :)
If you want to turn easier upwind, then  a daggerboard positioned ahead your feet helps a lot, espetially if a rudder is fitted ( you move pivot point ahead)
my 18' is equipped with a rudder and 2 daggerboard cases: one abt 1' head feet, 1 abt 1,5 ' ahead rudder. generally on DW conditions I do not use daggerboard, excepted in very choppy conditions i put it just ahead of rudder.

if using a daggerboard with a fixed fin, board will mike to drive straight, if it's use with a rudder, it turns unreal. simple hydrodynamics.

\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2018, 12:52:48 PM »
efect when turning with a rudder and a fore daggerboard...
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2018, 12:58:15 PM »
I deal with high winds (25+) coming from unexpected directions quite often. The one thing
I always carry with me is the Abuelo ventral (Aercore ventral), I can paddle into the wind or
keep same trajectory in cross-wind just by pushing on the rail, thus maintaining optimal trim
for the board and maximize on my paddling effort.

When conditions turn on us like that, the Bullets with the rudders can't keep up.
and your ventral becomes a problem when  downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more  removable daggerboard/centreboards... that was fitted on american boats in mid 19th century... and on allwindsurfboards/ that's the only good solution sorry I do not want be agressive but ventral fin idea is a long way back...
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

PonoBill

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2018, 01:01:24 PM »
I did a front rudder once years ago for just that reason--put it just behind the beginning of the rocker line. I made it so I could steer it manually (paddle-ually?) with the vane pushed down, or let the wind set it with a wind vane. It went upwind like magic, holding any course. It felt like it had a motor. Downwind, however, it was like a truck with half a turn of worn out steering. Wandered all over the place with the vane popping loose at random times and turning the board sharply in some random direction. Rod Parmenter, who has the agility and balance of a monkey tried it downwinding and fell in about 50 times. I loved watching that. We finally stopped and pulled it out or he'd probably still be trying to finish the run.

Pierre, Mark Raaphorst did a beautiful switchblade ventral fin that he mounted far enough back that it was more like a daggerboard. Most of the Maui crew tried it, and the consensus was "very cool, and useful if you want to go upwind. But I pretty much never want to go upwind."
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 01:05:34 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

burchas

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2018, 04:34:43 PM »
and your ventral becomes a problem when  downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more  removable daggerboard/centreboards...

The first reason I would prefer a ventral over a daggerboard is drag! The second one,
I could easily replicate the daggerboard effect just by sticking my blade in the water
upfront by the rail like Jeremy Riggs does.

My ventral, unlike the usual ventral, has its core cutout. That makes all the difference
and separates it from other attempts done by the likes of Mark. The difference is that
this fin is not a passive and I do have control over its behavior to a certain degree so
it won't randomly go in certain direction. The placement here is key and most failed
attempts i've seen was due to placing it too upfront which makes it too reactive.

Mark actually wanted to install his ventral steering on my custom board. I sent the specs
to Larry Allison, he told me it won't work: "The placement is all wrong and the template
will also creates issues". Just like me though, he really liked the mechanism which was brilliant.

While my cutout ventral is not great for most downwind conditions, it is really good in
lined-up conditions when turning on a whim is not essential. Just like Bill describes it,
It feels like you have motor, but once you chose direction, the fin will take you till the end
of the glide. It took someone very skillful like Jeremy Riggs, who tested it, to change direction
mid-glide. it will also save your ass if the wind has a lot of direction from the side.

I can remove it or add it mid ride anyway since it's a click-it fin, which I did many
times and it saved my ass couple of times as well.

I wish I had this fin for the Carolina Cup race, would have made huge difference, specifically in
the windy sections and sections with considerable amount of wake. And don't even think
about using daggerboard as you will collect pebbles in all the shallow sections ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 05:03:01 PM by burchas »
in progress...

PaddleSpot

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 10:46:51 PM »
Olivier Drut
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PaddleSpot

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 10:52:12 PM »

Olivier Drut
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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 10:56:47 PM »

and your ventral becomes a problem when  downwinding... I DO not understand why we don't see more  removable daggerboard/centreboards..

Biggest enigma of the 21th century  :)
Olivier Drut
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Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2018, 06:54:03 AM »

The first reason I would prefer a ventral over a daggerboard is drag!

...
Up to you but I don't see anydrag issue with drag as it's easy to stick lips which close it... it's less drag than empty fink, and ca be remover by pulling it out from deck.( or someot them with paddle blade)
...
I can remove it or add it mid ride anyway since it's a click-it fin, which I did many
times and it saved my ass couple of times as well.
...
Can you remove it without  put your board upside down? a daggerboard takes couple seconds!
...
 And don't even think
about using daggerboard as you will collect pebbles in all the shallow sections ;)

And unless you don't put your board in the sand, pebbles, gravel, etc,, there is no such issue...  hte only issue is a bit more complicated construction and additional weight, but not so much more as afin box. Honestly, for having used it for 8 years, I do not find any negative issue.../ easy balance when you need, added stability, reduced fatigue, easy to put on and remove... on a choppy side-wind race leg it can make all the difference . It board is equipped with rudder, turning ability is greatly improved, etc, etc...
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

burchas

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 08:09:51 AM »
Honestly, for having used it for 8 years, I do not find any negative issue.../ easy balance when you need, added stability, reduced fatigue, easy to put on and remove... on a choppy side-wind race leg it can make all the difference . It board is equipped with rudder, turning ability is greatly improved, etc, etc...

Couldn't agree more! These are the exact reasons I almost always use the ventral.

The benefits I see over the daggerboard solution is:

1. Active steering (subtle but effective)
2. Less drag
3. Lighter
in progress...

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 01:20:54 AM »
I am still not convinced... but I should try.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 01:22:39 AM by Pierre »
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

 


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