Author Topic: What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water? (Read 36361 times)

FloridaWindSUP · « **on:** April 28, 2017, 07:11:47 AM »

I've got a race coming up in Key West tomorrow that looks like a nightmare. 19 km circumnavigation of the island with 20-25 knot winds. I'm going to use my 14x23 Riviera RP. I've been practicing in rough water, and I think I can make it around, though the upwind and side-wind sections will be painful, and the not-quite-lined-up downwind will be tricky and exhausting. I suppose I could do it on my 14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon, which would make the upwind and downwind easier (not sure about the sidewind), but that board is significantly slower in the flat water than my narrow Rivi, and there are some pretty long wind-sheltered flatwater sections in this race.

I might someday order something custom from Riviera, and I was thinking about what features I might want if I did... Thinking about what shape could make ugly upwind and downwind easier and more efficient without being a major penalty in flatwater. Something like the new Fanatic Falcon? Something like the NSP dugout? Something like the SB AllStar or Ace? I'm not sure which of those design approaches adds the most ease to rough water with the least penalty to flatwater speed. Thoughts?

ukgm · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2017, 07:42:24 AM »

Quote from: FloridaWindSUP on April 28, 2017, 07:11:47 AM

I've got a race coming up in Key West tomorrow that looks like a nightmare. 19 km circumnavigation of the island with 20-25 knot winds. I'm going to use my 14x23 Riviera RP. I've been practicing in rough water, and I think I can make it around, though the upwind and side-wind sections will be painful, and the not-quite-lined-up downwind will be tricky and exhausting. I suppose I could do it on my 14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon, which would make the upwind and downwind easier (not sure about the sidewind), but that board is significantly slower in the flat water than my narrow Rivi, and there are some pretty long wind-sheltered flatwater sections in this race.

I might someday order something custom from Riviera, and I was thinking about what features I might want if I did... Thinking about what shape could make ugly upwind and downwind easier and more efficient without being a major penalty in flatwater. Something like the new Fanatic Falcon? Something like the NSP dugout? Something like the SB AllStar or Ace? I'm not sure which of those design approaches adds the most ease to rough water with the least penalty to flatwater speed. Thoughts?

19km is reasonably long - how much training do you typically do ? I wouldn't go to narrow if you haven't trained for the distance as that could make the narrow board extremely hard work. I went through a similar experience (and type of race) last year. I opted for a wide Allstar. I was glad I did.

Luc Benac · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2017, 08:00:56 AM »

2017 Blackfish 14x25?

FloridaWindSUP · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2017, 08:18:52 AM »

Quote from: ukgm on April 28, 2017, 07:42:24 AM

19km is reasonably long - how much training do you typically do ? I wouldn't go to narrow if you haven't trained for the distance as that could make the narrow board extremely hard work. I went through a similar experience (and type of race) last year. I opted for a wide Allstar. I was glad I did.

I train consistently 3-4x on the water per week, but usually short, intense sessions < 1 hour. I survived the Key West race last year on a 14x23.75 board, but it was only 10-15 knots that time. It's definitely going to be challenging on the 23 narrow board this year. I'll let you know how it goes.

Area 10 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2017, 08:50:30 AM »

I'd probably go with your Falcon if it's going to be very bumpy. 20-25 knots is pretty extreme, and you'll lose more time on the bumpy sections on a board that is tricky to balance than you'll gain on the flat sections. But I'm not you, and only you will know how much paddling your Riviera in chop takes out of you.

There really is no easy answer to the flat water/windy chop problem, I think. It's always a compromise one way or another. Even the Starboard Ace isn't that great in flat water. But in your position I'd be looking at a 14x25 Sidewinder. That's a pretty good compromise board, surprisingly fast in flat water. The Ace and Mistral Equinox are pretty good too. It will be interesting to see how the new SIC performs when we finally get to see more of it. Yes, NSP too. SIC FX maybe too. I don't think there's a single solution. And if you are considering dug-outs, try before you buy. Some people hate them. Similarly with "rolly" rounded-hull/tailed boards.

A 19km circuit in 20-25 knots is going to be a pretty big physical challenge. Good luck to you, I hope it goes well.

Eagle · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2017, 08:53:07 AM »

"Thinking about what shape could make ugly upwind and downwind easier and more efficient without being a major penalty in flatwater."

Would go low profile surf like a Maliko 24.

ukgm · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2017, 09:02:06 AM »

Quote from: FloridaWindSUP on April 28, 2017, 08:18:52 AM

Quote from: ukgm on April 28, 2017, 07:42:24 AM
19km is reasonably long - how much training do you typically do ? I wouldn't go to narrow if you haven't trained for the distance as that could make the narrow board extremely hard work. I went through a similar experience (and type of race) last year. I opted for a wide Allstar. I was glad I did.

I train consistently 3-4x on the water per week, but usually short, intense sessions < 1 hour. I survived the Key West race last year on a 14x23.75 board, but it was only 10-15 knots that time. It's definitely going to be challenging on the 23 narrow board this year. I'll let you know how it goes.

Personally, (with such varied conditions and reasonably short training sessions), I would go for a conservative board choice. You are going to get tired (or others will) and I personally am a fan of selecting equipment that can support athlete fatigue rather than contributing to it when the race distance, intensity or duration is unusual or not with the best training load to support it. Board choice won't win races but it can sure lose them. An allwater board in the 25 inch width range gets my vote.

warmuth · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2017, 09:16:22 AM »

26" at least would be the conservative way to go. The 25" sidewinder is not that great if winds are 20-25. A vapor would destroy the sidewinder in those conditions. You're an elite level racer but I think you'll struggle quite a bit on a 23" board if that wind holds. I'm not familiar with the course there but it's worth seriously considering the falcon, depends on how much actual shelter you get. I've talked to guys that have done it and they've said it ends up not being much

Eagle · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2017, 11:11:06 AM »

"I survived the Key West race last year on a 14x23.75 board, but it was only 10-15 knots that time."

With more breeze 20-25 kts expected this time would think a wider more stable platform is better. What did you not like about the 23.75 that a custom would overcome?

Edit - here is a desc of the AW DW Naish that is very competitive in flat water.

http://www.naishsurfing.com/2017-naish-maliko/

yugi · « **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2017, 11:51:51 AM »

You know your boards and up to what level of festivity you like them. A strong breeze like 20-25 kn kicks up a hell of a lot more mess than 10-15 . Chose conservatively.

You'll have plenty of time tomorrow to think about boards and see how other boards compare around you! Please report back your conclusions.

Don't be shy and ask fellow competitors to try their boards after the race.

viatormundi · « **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2017, 01:00:52 PM »

I can also recommend the Sidewinder 14x25. Great board for mixed conditions and quite fast on flat. I had no problems with 20 knots wind and I am not an elite racer but surf quite a bit.

Esteroali · « **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2017, 02:53:19 PM »

Too bad my Bark Vapor Ghost isn't a 14. It would be the perfect board.

Luc Benac · « **Reply #12 on:** April 28, 2017, 03:11:05 PM »

Quote from: Esteroali on April 28, 2017, 02:53:19 PM

Too bad my Bark Vapor Ghost isn't a 14. It would be the perfect board.

It might be slower than wanted if there is some long true flat portions and no drafting available.

ukgm · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2017, 11:04:21 PM »

I would also take a performance analysis approach and consider/estimate the period of time spent on true flat water (and at what stages of the race duration) vs when I was going to see the large chop/wind. If the latter stages are flat, that might pro pet me to make a different decision to if it were choppy.

Area 10 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 29, 2017, 02:42:06 AM »

Yes. And as I said above, you lose more time having the wrong board in chop than you gain having the right board in flat water. So you'd need to do some calculations of the proportions of time spent in the flats vs. chop.

If it is *really* a choppy 25 knots (rather than what people often claim to be 25 knots), then the majority of average paddlers would only manage around 1 mph paddling directly against that, and after 2 miles or so they would have to retire or get on their knees. Even on an ocean board. Side-on while paddling a displacement nose narrow flat water board would be extremely unpleasant, and again, only the very top paddlers would manage to stay on course and on their feet.

So I hope that your course isn't in the sea, and that the wind actually at water level ends up being less than forecast. A gentleman only paddles downwind in anything more than 20 knots

Paddling upwind/crosswind on a SUP in anything more than that is silly IMO and is like using a hammer as a can opener or a can opener as a hammer. It's the wrong tool for the job. You might as well stay on dry land and ask the competitors to rub a cheese-grater over their genitals for as long as they can tolerate. The same people would win.

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Author Topic: What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water? (Read 36361 times)

FloridaWindSUP

What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water?

ukgm

Re: What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water?

Luc Benac

Re: What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water?

FloridaWindSUP

Re: What Allwater/Downwind shapes are most competitive in flat water?

Area 10

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Eagle

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ukgm

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warmuth

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Eagle

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yugi

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viatormundi

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Esteroali

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Luc Benac

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ukgm

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Area 10

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