Author Topic: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?  (Read 98665 times)

ukgm

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2017, 03:59:52 AM »
...
3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.
...

That's interesting. Esp coming from you.

I abandoned heart rate monitors over 25 years ago.

I'd read a running book in the early 70's that talked about training at a "conversation pace". When I was racing Mtn bikes in the 80's I got a heart rate monitor and did a full test with an elite sports doctor friend to determine my ideal heart rate training zones. I used the heart rate monitor for a year or so only. It was cool to calibrate myself to understand what the "zone" feels like. Then dropped it. Turns out my ideal heart rate training pace was exactly "conversation pace".

Paddling, Mtn bike and ski skinning uphill I'll be the guy talking the whole way. It's a habit.

It would help if i provided some backstory:

- As a far as my first sport goes (cycle time trials) HR got replaced by power meter data. I found HR didn't offer any actionable intelligence (and could actually be misleading). I ditched its use.

- As far as SUP goes, I found the day to day variation and (particularly) a developing paddle stroke (as I'm on SUP year 3) made my HR data all but useless to monitor. I use perceived exertion instead. I do still wear a HR band in races from time to time (purely out of interest to see the maximums).

- I have used it occasionally to doublecheck for signs of overtraining. I know that my resting HR is typically around 47-49 in the morning. If it goes north of 55, I'm generally in trouble.

warmuth

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2017, 05:45:18 AM »
  I've been using a hrm for a couple months now following the paddle monster program. I can almost use perceived effort at this point but left to my own devices I almost always paddle at ~150 bpm. It's been pretty helpful at making me slow down. I'd have never paddled as slow as 130-140 without being instructed to. I don't have any experience with pure endurance sports though so training for strictly cardio is new to me.

ukgm

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2017, 06:07:11 AM »
If you're over 50 and not fit it'll be a real drag for sure to try get in shape but if you've always been athletic it's relatively easy to maintain. And I'm a desk jockey by day.

You can do it if you want to.

You're right about injury. I'm pretty much done with running thanks to a trashed ankle messing up a wakeboard flip landing.  The screws in there bother me. Read Born to Run. It's a fun book even if you aren't a runner. It's all about old farts never slowing down.

I'm not slowing down. I'm still getting better and that's thanks to SUP I have to say.

I picked SUP up, of course, for no wind days on the water but also to regain shoulder strength after a shattered shoulder. The cross training has definitely helped both my biking and skiing fitness levels. SUP I'm still getting faster.

So far so good.

Well its never over until it's over - Ex olympic heavyweight rower James Cracknell broke his marathon PB last weekend at aged 44 (and did a 2:43). 10 years ago he was 15 minutes slower).

Eagle

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2017, 10:29:15 AM »
Larry can def teach an Olympic level training and racing trick here and there.  While 35 yo Annabel still shows the younger racers how it should be done on a slow as molasses 12'6 vs mens 14.  She made those elite men in that train look bad on their 14s.  If you want to get your time close to 55 yo Larry -> maybe train like him.  Then maybe check out what board he was on.

Larry would be a good benchmark for many wannabe racing peeps.  Mid age guy you should be able to beat if you are anywhere serious.  Bart deS is an early 40ish guy that rules in crazy endurance races.  Another guy to pace results against.  The basic trick is to get on an efficient narrow nose 23 wide board if you want first or second.  The wide Maliko 26 is simply just too sluggish.  ;)

"With 500 racers one of the bigger events of the year. The Starboard Sprint 14'x23" proofed the right choice for Larry Cain (1st place) and I."

http://www.supracer.com/2016-chattajack-stand-up-paddleboard-race-results/
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Area 10

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2017, 11:00:09 AM »
I'm faster on a 26 than a 23. So it just depends on your body, and the amount of training you can do. There aren't "fast boards", they all go the same pace when no-one is paddling them.

ukgm and others were talking about the rekatively small growth in overall race participants now. One of the factors I think will be exactly what Jim Terrell predicted several years ago.

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/

The old hands here on the 'zone will remember this debate well at the time, but I guess there might be one or two new people who haven't read it.

If we want to keep numbers up I would think that events need to keep that "fun run" vibe. To be a nice paddle in itself, and more emphasis on the social aspect than the competitive one. A lot of paddlers - probably 95% of them - find race training boring, so once you've done one (and no doubt got your ass kicked), then it becomes ever harder to motivate yourself to do another, unless the event offers a nice/unusual/social paddle in of itself independently of racing.

But maybe the uber-competitive types are better off just doing their thing, and not worrying about expanding their numbers or pandering to the occasional racer. It's not clear to me why we need race numbers to expand anyway. Most of us are happy with SUP being a niche sport. How do I gain if there were e.g. SUP lakes all around me teeming with SUPers, and every school had SUP as part of the curriculum? Some people would no doubt make money, but not me or anyone I paddle with. It would t offer me anything I don't already have, and in fact it might just mean irksome regulations and interfering regulatory bodies populated with tinpot dictators telling us the direction that SUP must go. The appeal of SUP is partly things like it's simplicity, ease of learning, adaptability etc, but for some of us it is also the fact that there's no expectation that you'll be a card-carrying member of some organisation that regulates your equipment etc. The amateurishness and spontaneity of SUP right now, about 10 years into the sport proper, is appealing.

Eagle

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2017, 11:25:06 AM »
No doubt width and stability are very personal issues.  Have stated that before a few times now.  But a Sprint 23 is def faster than a Dom 27.5 if you can balance well on both.  As noted if you cannot -> simply go wider until you are comfortable.  Point was the winner used a 23 wide board.  Low drag and very efficient board and fast.

Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards.  ;)
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Eagle

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2017, 12:00:23 PM »
Here again 187 lb GM reviews his 23 Sprint for those that missed his post.

Here is a perfect example where GM goes quick on a Sprint 23.  If swapped for a Sprint 21.5 with quads -> that would probs be very quick.   ;)

Paddler: recreational paddler, male, 41y, 85kg (187lbs) , with lower center of gravity- 174cm (5'8'') , but with large heart
Last year board was 2016 SB All Star 14x23 (AS- bellow mentioning)

Equimpment: 2017 SB Sprint 14x23, original stock fin (Natural Winner Fin), 2016 SB bolt M (oval shaft), Garmin XT310 (mouted on board) with hearth belt.

First impression: wow, this glides on flat. It really cuts water like a hot knife trough butter with no/little noise comparing to AS. Also cuts small waves upwind really good.

Stability: on flat, the Sprint is more stable than AS – I would say only due to lower standing position and 3cm wider tail. Did not try pivot turning as I haven't learn it yet and the water is to cold to learn at this time of the season. 

Traction: with original stock fin the board tracks pretty well, but due to my poor ability still needs some work to paddle in strait line.

Test: 60min. paddling trial in lake two 4,5km circles (please see my garmin profile) to paddle from 130-165 hearth rate/min. Maintaining speed over 9,0 km/h (5,6mi/h) is pretty easy on the board like this (on flat), and over 9,6 km/h (6,0 mi/h) should now become my standard race pace on flat.
I'm fortunate enough to paddling in the lake 10min driving away, almost whole year (except 3 weeks in January due to frozen lake). My average paddle day is 8-12km with no training program, 5times a week which add up to more than 1.500km/year. I'm also fortunate enough to be on Starboard national team which ables me to purchase board at very fair price!
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1653545444

Cheers and paddle on,

M

Interestingly, some of these turned up to the UK's first big race last week. I counted 2-3 of them (with another 2-3 23 inch versions). Popular at the front end but a real handful in a race with 50 other guys was my impression.
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ukgm

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2017, 12:24:34 PM »
No doubt width and stability are very personal issues.  Have stated that before a few times now.  But a Sprint 23 is def faster than a Dom 27.5 if you can balance well on both.  As noted if you cannot -> simply go wider until you are comfortable.  Point was the winner used a 23 wide board.  Low drag and very efficient board and fast.

Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards.  ;)

Interestingly, one of my local training partners moved from a 2016 Mistral Equinox (24.75 width) to a 2016 JP Flatwater Race (24 width). We went from me being able to be ~30 secs faster than him over 40 mins to suddenly being 2 minutes down. He weighs similar to me but a fair bit shorter. Just goes to show that volume isn't everything.....

Area 10

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2017, 12:45:42 PM »
No doubt width and stability are very personal issues.  Have stated that before a few times now.  But a Sprint 23 is def faster than a Dom 27.5 if you can balance well on both.  As noted if you cannot -> simply go wider until you are comfortable.  Point was the winner used a 23 wide board.  Low drag and very efficient board and fast.

Def extremely hard to be winning fast on a wide 26 board when others are beating you on narrow sleek 21-24 boards.  ;)
The fact that they are on narrow boards tells you that they are superior athletes - it is not the board that is making them fast, they are on those boards *because* they are fast. They'd still kick your ass even on a 30" wide board, but for them it's easier to paddle a 21" wide one than a 30" wide one, so why wouldn't they?

Look, Eagle, I'm very glad that you like your 23" wide board. I have a 14x23" too (also boards at widths of 24.5", 25", 26", 26.75", 27"(x2), 28.2", 29.75", 30" (x2) and 32". But the way you are seemingly turning every conversation round to the merits of a 23" wide board ignores the fact that for many people they are just NOT fast for them, and never will be. Just as a 20" wide board probably wouldn't be for you.

It sounds like you are bragging or pimping. Well, it's no big deal paddling a 23" wide board. I can do it, and I'm a wobbly old man. So please, enough with the "my board is narrower than yours" one-upmanship, and the All Star adverts, eh?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 01:44:31 PM by Area 10 »

warmuth

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2017, 02:13:42 PM »
  90% or more of male entrants at any given amateur race cannot paddle a 23" board faster than one wider in a typical race around here. As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.

Eagle

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2017, 03:42:35 PM »
A10 - Am simply saying that the pros and elite racers use narrower boards simply because it is faster for them.  They are plenty stable on them obviously.  As well it seems GM likes his Sprint.  And point was Larry and Bart used their Sprints to place first and second.

For me all I can say is that when docile in the ocean my 23 is faster than my 27.5 -> and when rough my Bullet is faster than my 23.  I clearly understand that you have stated a few times that your 26 is faster than your 23.  Not sure what other points there are to make.

If I were to choose a race board -> I would go for the AS24.5 or Eradicator 25 at the moment.  Both are quite a bit more stable and easier to handle than my 23 in slop and chop over 5 miles.
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Eagle

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2017, 04:16:04 PM »
"The fact that they are on narrow boards tells you that they are superior athletes - it is not the board that is making them fast, they are on those boards *because* they are fast."

Seems no one has stated that narrower boards make someone faster.  Not sure where you got that idea from.

But probs more valid is that those paddlers simply have good enough balance without losing much power.  Def narrower boards can be much slower sometimes.  Most everyone understands this -> so not sure what there is to dispute.
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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2017, 04:30:03 PM »
  90% or more of male entrants at any given amateur race cannot paddle a 23" board faster than one wider in a typical race around here. As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.
Yep. That's it.

Luc Benac

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2017, 09:54:21 PM »
As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.

Every-time I have been lured to go narrower (24"), I have found that while I could perfectly paddle the board without falling at all, I also found that I did not really fully enjoyed the experience 70% of the time. A top paddler in Canada, that actually bought my BF 24" is having a blast 99% of the time with it and takes it everywhere. It is not the board it is me.
Now I know that I enjoy a board that is over 25"and  bellow 27" wide. Too narrow and legs get tired, too wide and stroke is not as nice.
This might change if I become miraculously a better paddler, but for the time being this is the rules I stick with.
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ukgm

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Re: 2018 Raceboard rumours ?
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2017, 12:05:15 AM »
As it is I've done 4 races this year so far and my 24"whiplash has been benched for two of them due to conditions. I'll be lucky to use it in half of the races this year. Forget the pros, theres no point in making comparisons.

Every-time I have been lured to go narrower (24"), I have found that while I could perfectly paddle the board without falling at all, I also found that I did not really fully enjoyed the experience 70% of the time. A top paddler in Canada, that actually bought my BF 24" is having a blast 99% of the time with it and takes it everywhere. It is not the board it is me.
Now I know that I enjoy a board that is over 25"and  bellow 27" wide. Too narrow and legs get tired, too wide and stroke is not as nice.
This might change if I become miraculously a better paddler, but for the time being this is the rules I stick with.

Mind you, race boards aren't supposed to be a pleasure. They are supposed to be the knife edge between full power application and maximum cruising speed. Both of those take some effort and some concentration. If I were not racing, I'd be moving around on a 26 and be perfectly happy.

I do believe there is also a coercive effect in the sport whereby some paddlers are buying boards that are slightly too much for them as they think that's the norm at the sharp end and are faster. I've seen a couple of friends realise this, add an inch or two back on and go much better for it. People should realise that the majority of the typical elites are now a typical weight and height that many of us are not. Guys like Costerlitz and Booth are morphological or physical outliers to the others.

 


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