Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344460 times)

headmount

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1080 on: March 22, 2017, 09:57:09 PM »
  Been enjoying this thread on foreign policy and whether there was a quid pro quo with the Russkies by the Trump team but the pocket book issue for most Americans is health care. 

Tomorrow is the big vote in the House on the new repeal and replace (Ryancare) The Koch Bros. have come out saying they'd back their GOP House members who vote no, which is huge.  The President has threatened GOP House members in no uncertain terms to enlist their support but his star has lost its luster.  GOP House members face signing their name to a doomed bill in the Senate, thereby risking their political fortunes in 2018 for nothing.  Hitching their wagon to Trump's star might have been advantageous  when he was first elected but those days (in 60days) are already in the rear view mirror with everything that has happened.

During this initial and probably highest period of 'Political capital' for the President (though it seems to be rapidly draining) failing to pass this Ryan/Trumpcare will be a harsh rebuke for the GOP efforts and focus since even before Obamacare was passed. 

While sports teams always play the game to see who wins, the GOP can and I predict will, pull the bill off the vote tomorrow.  That's the only way they save face.

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1081 on: March 22, 2017, 11:18:51 PM »
I'm a foreigner so don't really understand the US healthcare system or the proposed changes. But a brief reading of Ryancare on Wikipedia makes me wonder in what way the act would result in benefit for Trump's core supporters. The arguments presented there seem to suggest that older/poorer voters would likely lose out (and indeed, die earlier) relative to younger/richer ones. Is this correct? If it is, why would Trump be shafting his own voting base? If it isn't correct, who does the bill actually help, and why? I'm not sure I understand the logic of it, overall (but then again, as I say, I know nothing about the US healthcare system so please excuse me if this is a stupid question).

tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1082 on: March 23, 2017, 03:45:20 AM »
I'm a foreigner so don't really understand the US healthcare system or the proposed changes. But a brief reading of Ryancare on Wikipedia makes me wonder in what way the act would result in benefit for Trump's core supporters. The arguments presented there seem to suggest that older/poorer voters would likely lose out (and indeed, die earlier) relative to younger/richer ones. Is this correct? If it is, why would Trump be shafting his own voting base? If it isn't correct, who does the bill actually help, and why? I'm not sure I understand the logic of it, overall (but then again, as I say, I know nothing about the US healthcare system so please excuse me if this is a stupid question).

They do not give a shit about who it helps...well that is not quite true. It helps the insurance companies..but not the constituents...all they REALLY REALLY care about it repealing something made by a guy they detest...Obama.
The way congress has acted the past few years has little to do with governing and everything to so with being petty small minded and, dare I say, racist children. What they should of course see is that the only way out of the mess is a singlepayer system. Insurance shouldn't even be part of the consideration.




Admin

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1083 on: March 23, 2017, 05:11:18 AM »
I'm a foreigner so don't really understand the US healthcare system or the proposed changes. But a brief reading of Ryancare on Wikipedia makes me wonder in what way the act would result in benefit for Trump's core supporters. The arguments presented there seem to suggest that older/poorer voters would likely lose out (and indeed, die earlier) relative to younger/richer ones. Is this correct? If it is, why would Trump be shafting his own voting base? If it isn't correct, who does the bill actually help, and why? I'm not sure I understand the logic of it, overall (but then again, as I say, I know nothing about the US healthcare system so please excuse me if this is a stupid question).

To understand this you have to understand the reality of Obamacare.  After all of the bloviating is through, Obamacare made healthcare significantly more expensive for most people.  You could stop reading this right there and already understand what set the stage for the current plan.  Did Obamcare insure anyone that was previously uninsured?  Yes. Did it prevent the bankrupting of some really sick people by insurmountable bills?  Yes.  While there is quite a bit of argument about how many people moved into the ranks of the insured, one thing is for sure, rates went way up for the huge majority and painfully so for many.  Keep in mind that wages have not increased and many people are entirely maxed out.  There are a lot of political topics where the population does not understand the nuances and those are easily BS'ed, but there was no selling into this shit.  People were paying their actual bills and Hillary clamoring on about "It was called Hillary Care first" was another way of saying "I'm a dipshit".

Obamacare was good intention reduced to garbage by committee.  But...the classic mistake is to assume that because something sucks that it can not be made worse.  It always can. 

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 07:50:40 AM by Admin »

Admin

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1084 on: March 23, 2017, 05:23:28 AM »
...This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Anyone who goes to bed at night wondering whether their part of the world will be annexed by Russia (for instance).


We have to spend 13 times what Russia does to feel safe at night?  How bout a teddy bear?

It's even worse than that, we outspend Russia 13/1, so others can feel safe.  Have we no shame?

So Trump's additional 54 Billion is so others can feel safe?  America First indeed.

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1085 on: March 23, 2017, 05:47:07 AM »
I'm a foreigner so don't really understand the US healthcare system or the proposed changes. But a brief reading of Ryancare on Wikipedia makes me wonder in what way the act would result in benefit for Trump's core supporters. The arguments presented there seem to suggest that older/poorer voters would likely lose out (and indeed, die earlier) relative to younger/richer ones. Is this correct? If it is, why would Trump be shafting his own voting base? If it isn't correct, who does the bill actually help, and why? I'm not sure I understand the logic of it, overall (but then again, as I say, I know nothing about the US healthcare system so please excuse me if this is a stupid question).

To understand this you have to understand the reality of Obamacare.  After all of the bloviating is though, Obamacare made healthcare significantly more expensive for most people.  You could stop reading this right there and already understand what set the stage for he current plan.  Did Obamcare insure anyone that was previously uninsured?  Yes. Did it prevent the bankrupting of some really sick people by insurmountable bills?  Yes.  While there is quite a bit of argument about how many people moved into the ranks of the insured, one thing is for sure, rates went way up for the huge majority and painfully so for many.  Keep in mind that wages have not increased and many people are entirely maxed out.  There are a lot of political topics where the population does not understand the nuances and those are easily BS'ed, but there was no selling into this shit.  People were paying their actual bills and Hillary clamoring on about "It was called Hillary Care first" was another way of saying "I'm a dipshit".

Obamacare was good intention reduced to garbage by committee.  But...the classic mistake is to assume that because something sucks that it can not be made worse.  It always can.
Ok, thanks very much for that explanation.

So, if the problem is that healthcare insurance is too expensive, then what mechanisms exist to put pressure on the insurers and healthcare providers to be more efficient and reduce costs? The job of a company is to maximise returns for its shareholders, and screw as much money out of the customers as possible while staying afloat. That's fine if we are dealing with a company that makes TVs because you can always do without one if you don't like the deal. But surely it's not the same with life-and-death issues like healthcare? So, although it is clear that your government is clipping the wings of the insurers in various ways (e.g. not being able to refuse insurance because of existing conditions), who decides what is a reasonable cost either for the insurance or the healthcare, and even whether certain treatment decisions should be allowed (i.e. to avoid over-prescribing etc)? I'm not sure why in these discussions I don't hear more anger directed to the insurers/healthcare providers rather than the government. Looking at the amount you pay relative to other countries is pretty clear you are being ripped off. But instead you principally blame Obama, Trump etc.

But as I say, I don't understand your system and I'm not party to the numerous discussions that must happen in households throughout the US, so forgive me if I've got this wrong.

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1086 on: March 23, 2017, 06:00:58 AM »
So Trump's additional 54 Billion is so others can feel safe?


Only to some extent. 

We all see that our infrastructure is crumbling, our bridges, tunnels and roads are looking 3rd worldly.  But
have you seen our missiles and warships lately; talk about your fixer-uppers.

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1087 on: March 23, 2017, 06:18:07 AM »
Looking at the amount you pay relative to other countries is pretty clear you are being ripped off.

The Average (unsubsidized) annual cost of health insurance for a family was about $20,000 in 2016 here in the US.  (My small family of (3) paid a tad more than that for pretty marginal insurance). 

Area 10, what is the total annual cost for family health care in your neck of the woods?

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1088 on: March 23, 2017, 06:21:20 AM »
I'm not party to the numerous discussions that must happen in households throughout the US, so forgive me if I've got this wrong.

Let me quote our president, "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew health care could be so complicated."

You are vastly overestimating the conversations that are taking place.  We are a simple people.  "our payment is what?".

Not to worry, "We have come up with a solution that's really, really I think very good."  I wish there could have been a third really, I think.

On a more serious note, the more nuanced president Obama talked about the Health insurance industry, which is a 1.2 Trillion dollar industry here.  While alternate modes such as single payer have allure, he was well aware that a disruption to a 1.2 Trillion dollar industry in an 18 Trillion dollar economy is easier said than done. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 06:43:50 AM by Admin »

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1089 on: March 23, 2017, 06:27:15 AM »
The Average (unsubsidized) annual cost of health insurance for a family was about $20,000 in 2016 here in the US.  (My small family of (3) paid a tad more than that for pretty marginal insurance). 

...and the median household income is 56K


lucabrasi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1090 on: March 23, 2017, 06:42:47 AM »
I'm not sure why in these discussions I don't hear more anger directed to the insurers/healthcare providers rather than the government.
Trust me, we are pissed at the insurers/healthcare providers. I think the anger is directed at Obamacare because it was shoved down our throats, made a law that you had to have it, took away the free market to go and get it, and passed while no one knew what was really in it.....and they even admitted not knowing what exactly was in it.
Insurance companies going bankrupt and pulling out of market areas? Are you serious? Yes, that is happening. That's pretty telling I think.
I used to have 6 people on my plan years ago. Been down to 4 for quite awhile and pay more than I ever did for 6. Looking like for 3 is going to be the same.

digger71

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1091 on: March 23, 2017, 07:22:52 AM »
Let me quote our president, "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew health care could be so complicated."

I love this quote!  Everybody knew.  Well, everybody except him.

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1092 on: March 23, 2017, 07:56:09 AM »
The Average (unsubsidized) annual cost of health insurance for a family was about $20,000 in 2016 here in the US.  (My small family of (3) paid a tad more than that for pretty marginal insurance). 
...and the median household income is 56K

Yes, the US healthcare industry has priced itself out of range of the "average household".  The escalating costs are clearly not sustainable.  It's not possible to fix health care by simply subsidizing an inefficient system.  The efficiency of health care delivery and utilization has to be improved first.  One way to drive the costs down, especially at the administrative level, would be to introduce competition into the marketplace.  Another (which I do not care for) would be to go to a single payer system which would be a form of universal healthcare or socialized medicine.


PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1093 on: March 23, 2017, 08:14:09 AM »
In general, people getting treatment don't ask "what is this going to cost" because what they pay has little to do with cost--it has to do with their insurance plan. There's very little opportunity for competition in such a highly regulated business with so little cost transparency. It is, for all purposes, a monopoly, and monopolies have to be regulated. I see no opportunity to reduce cost and increase efficiency absent regulation.  Insurance companies have some bargaining ability but it is easy for the hospitals and providers to end run around that: "we don't take that insurance".

The healthcare system is at a dead end, and Obamacare exacerbated the problems.  I don't buy for a moment that "Obamacare was good intention reduced to garbage by committee." It was garbage to start with. Any health care overhaul that doesn't address cost is doomed.

Wait, I know, take the the defense budget and spend it on healthcare. Oops, no effect. Healthcare cost is almost 18 percent of GDP (highest per capita in the world by a big margin), the outrageous defense budget is 3 percent.  That extra 54 billion is a rounding error.

On the other hand, the tech world might have some solutions. If you need an ekg, instead of paying a hospital between $300 and $2000 for it, you could buy an AliveCor Kardia for 99 bucks, and do your own.  https://www.wired.com/2017/03/alivecor-kardia/ 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:27:21 AM by PonoBill »
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mrbig

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1094 on: March 23, 2017, 08:37:20 AM »
Single payer seems to work fine for us old folks and in many other countries for everyone.

But "socialized" is a loaded term for many in this country..
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:41:10 AM by mrbig »
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