Wishful thinking WillH2O, the closing of the mill race is the start of fixing the mill race toe drains. Once the city goes down this path the dam's future is secure.

The city won't spend the money to fix the mill race and then tear the dam and mill race down, makes no financial sense at all.

Read the article you linked too in the Ann Arbor Chronicle, even the mayor thinks the dam will not be taken down and he has a strong association with HRWC.

Time to turn your energy and passion to dams that should be removed like the Ypsilanti site.

Cool video by the way, I have noticed Kayakers in the Olympics using their legs but did not understand how or why. The stroke actually shares many similar dynamics with the rowing stroke. I am sure that makes you cringe but it is true.

I am trying to get a copy of a very cool rowing video from the U of M team on Argo to share with you and other readers of this thread, hope to have a copy by tomorrow to post. I think even you will have to admit it is pretty cool video to watch.

My oldest daughter who rows for MSU (yes she started rowing with the rest of us two years ago, learning on Argo after her freshman year at MSU) asked me to mention that rowers also use pogies so we do have that in common at least.

Talk to you again tomorrow.

Maybe you should look at the East Race (ER) in South Bend, Indiana again. It has been mentioned in this debate and I paddle there often yes I'm a whitewater paddler. First off the ER was built 25 years ago and is very artificial. Today a lot can be done to make new whitewater courses look more natural. The ER is a modification to a old mill race on the east side of the river and the dam is still there. In South Bend there is rowing on the St. Joe just above the ER and the dam. The rowers are at home less than a half mile above the ER and row down to within sight of the ER. I believe that a local club and the University of Notre Dame use this location. A whitewater course can exist with no affect on rowing. Why not modify the broken mill race you have now into a whitewater course? That would allow rowing to continue the way it has and would add paddlers on the river. You should get someone who knows how to design a whitewater course show you how to keep everyone happy and on the water. A lot can be done if things are designed right.

Whitewater at the Argo Dam site IS being looked at by professional park builders

There is substantial, empirical evidence that river access improvements can have significant, positive, economic benefits, for a local community. Whitewater Parks attract a desirable demographic of users, from outside of a community, between the ages of 18-60 with disposable income and the willingness to travel in pursuit of this specific recreational activity.

Flows at the site vary from an average of 850 cubic feet per second (cfs) in the early spring, to an average of 200 cfs in mid-summer to early fall. There IS sufficient flow to support recreational use throughout the year, weather permitting. When flows are higher more experienced users will use the facility; when flows are lower during the summer months less experienced users and bank-based users will frequent the site.

(source: waterdata.usgs.gov, station USGS 04174500)

The whitewater portion of the project consists of four whitewater features located in the main channel of the river, downstream of the existing Argo Dam. Each feature would consist of a drop structure with approximately three feet of hydraulic fall.

Cost effective, recreational, safety and environmental improvements can be made at the Argo Dam site. The proposed concept will improve existing conditions and provide a unique recreational amenity for local residents and regional visitors alike. The proposed project will create a truly unique facility with flat-water recreation, Class I moving water and whitewater recreation, all hosted at the same site.

This project would likely serve as a national model for the blend of river recreation and environmental benefits gained through providing fish passage around the Argo Dam. Communities around the country have found that whitewater parks can be powerful economic stimulators and create vibrancy that radiates out into the community, from the river corridor. Ann Arbor has the potential to create a world-class recreational amenity that will benefit the entire community.

Recreational improvements in the modification of the Argo Dam are cost effective !





http://bit.ly/ArgoDesignConcept

CLICK on image to get a full view !

-




Recreation Engineering and Planning
485 Arapahoe Ave
Boulder | CO | 80302
(303) 545-5883

jastharp a hybrid solution has been proposed but is cost prohibitive. There is a proposal to modify the mill race as well and hopefully this will get serious consideration.

Rowers have no objection to these modification plans if they don't prevent rowing, which as presented they would not other than losing a few hundred feet of rowable water, which is not a big dea.

H20Willi is very anti rowing as can be seen by his posts, so I appreciate you a fast water kayaker taking a more even attitude toward the debate.

Still working on getting a copy of that video promised from my last post.

Rowers are the ONLY reason the dam exists at all at this point in time.
There are no other arguments against removal of the dam.

The dam should have gone a long, long time ago as it's just a dying relic of an age gone by

Do you really think rowers are that powerful and/or influential? Wish that was the case and this would be a done deal.

Unfortunately that is not the case, so we are diligent in getting the all the information out for people to review and decide for themselves.

For example, I found out today that HRWC and possibly some city officials have been seeking funding to remove the dam from State and/or the Feds for the past two years and they have been completely unsuccessful. If the dam is going out, the city is going to have to pay for it and that is a deal killer.

You must have had some really bad experiences with rowers or crew teams in the past to have such a negative view of a sport and the people that participate in that sport.

But in the end if the dam does stay and you want to "blame" rowers for that decision I really don't have a problem with that. Fortunately there have been many other non rowers step up and support Argo pond and park at all the city meetings and it is clear that is going to continue.

WillH2O one post ago: "Rowers are the ONLY reason the dam exists at all at this point in time.
There are no other arguments against removal of the dam."

WillH2O four posts ago: "Whitewater at the Argo Dam site IS being looked at by professional park builders" and presents a plan which preserves the dam.

I guess WillH2O is arguing against himself. Funny things do happen when you get paddled with a cleaver.

The dam would be gone in a second if it was strictly up to the designers.
They want all the water they can get to make the water park.

I've paid close attention to a variety of dams getting torn down around the nation and
often kayakers and canoeists get the short end of the stick compared to other special interest groups.

The Shiawassee river in Chesaning Michigan just removed a dam and put in massive huge rocks weirs that totally mess with people wanting to paddle that section of the river.
City officials claims it for the fisherman.....yeah, fisherman that don't use boats !.

The Shiawassee River JUST got a labeled a State Heritage Water Trail and then the City of Chesaning bone headed officials get his bright idea to block the river for paddlers.

Hopefully Ann Arbor has a progressive Blue Infrastructure evolution from its officials.

H20Willi,

Good luck with that, regarding the Ann Arbor officials, instead they are going to spend over $35,000 in legal fees contesting the MDEQ order, which is completely crazy no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

No matter if you are a rower or a kayaker, it is pretty clear this is going to come down to a pure financial cash flow decision and the interests of either party though loud won't be the deciding factor. The solution that impacts the city's cash flow the least in the next two years is the decision that will be the one that wins. You and I can forget all the long term predictions, environmental or recreational impacts, in the end it is going to be the all mighty dollar.

In this case that is fix or close the mill race to comply with the MDEQ and/or electrify the dam or dam out advocates some how find federal or state money to fund the removal very soon, which from everything I have read and heard is not going to happen.

If no funding is found to take the dam out the status quo is going to win, which in this case would make the majority in Ann Arbor very happy.

There are expressions said in a variety of ways :
-Have to break eggs to make the cake
-Need to spend some money to make some money
-Sitting on the fence gives splinters and hemorrhoids,
& a funny walk when it's over

Senate Bill # 2747 was introduced to the floor of the Senate on
Monday, 09 November 2009 -Legislation to permanently provide $900 million to the Land and Water Conservation Fund (LWCF), the federal government’s main program to protect land and provide outdoor recreation opportunities is supported by a broad coalition of conservation and recreation organizations.

The program also includes grants to support state and local parks. Those grants help develop park facilities and recreational amenities – creating jobs and supporting the quality-of-life factors that allow communities to attract employers and a strong work force.

Because only a fraction of the funds dedicated to the purpose have actually been spent, there is a backlog of more than $30 billion worth of lands that federal agencies would like to protect. In addition, states say they have a huge unmet need for local parks and recreation resources totaling more than $27 billion in eligible projects.

Federal and state public lands as well local parks and recreation facilities greatly enhance communities’ quality of life, which in turn helps large and small localities to attract new residents and businesses and to generate tourism-related jobs and revenues. Outdoor recreation including hunting, fishing, camping, climbing, hiking, paddling, backcountry skiing, mountain biking, wildlife viewing, and other activities contributes a total of $730 billion annually to the economy, supporting 6.5 million jobs (1 of every 20 jobs in the U.S.) and stimulates 8 percent of all consumer spending according to the Outdoor Industry Foundation.

Many studies show that this type of commitment to our nation's recreation infrastructure would easily pay for itself in the resulting reduction in health care costs and the increase in the mental well-being of our children,” said Frank Hugelmeyer, president of Outdoor Industry Association.

The Land and Water Conservation Fund Coalition is an informal partnership of national, state and local conservation and recreation organizations working together to support full and dedicated funding for LWCF.

Awesome, we should get some money to take out the Ypsi dam and develop the fast water park that the Kayakers association is interested in, and maybe we can even funding for improvements on Argo pond for rowing purposes.

Here is another park that is being built right now. Multipurpose in design with the dam left in place. Should be running by next year in Yorkville, Illinois.

Links
www.yorkville.il.us/documents/Yorkville-APFposter.pdf
www.illinoispaddling.org/YorkvilleWhitew...eWhitewaterPark.html
www.chicagowhitewater.org/cwa/yorkville/yorkvilledesign.pdf